General Discussion

General DiscussionResearch study into Dota 2

Research study into Dota 2 in General Discussion
Starfire

    Hi all,

    I am a post-graduate student at Northampton University. You are being invited to participate in this research study of the acquisition of skill expertise in education and video games. I am interested in finding out about your learning experiences in an educational setting and Dota 2. There is a growing body of evidence suggesting video games have potential to be used as learning tools. I am looking for participants who play Dota 2 and are currently involved in some form of education. Please do share this with other people you feel would be suitable for the study.

    Your participation in this study will require the completion of the linked questionnaire. This should take approximately 5/10 minutes of your time. Your participation will be anonymous, and you will not be contacted again in the future. This survey involves minimal risk to you. The benefits, however, may impact society by helping increase knowledge about how video games can enhance learning within education.

    You do not have to be in this study if you do not want to be. If you decide you do not want to participate after starting the questionnaire, simply close the web browser and your answers will not be recorded. If you have further questions about this project and my research please do not hesitate to contact me.

    Link to questionnaire

    Gator

      Why is currently involved in some form of formal education relevant?

      Starfire

        As this part of the research is directly comparing learning experiences within education against learning experiences within games (Dota 2). Only people currently involved in both Dota 2 and education will be able to provide that insight.

        Autumnus

          How does this relate to education? We play dota for fun(to lose brain cells and develop cancer)

          Potato Marshal

            Why is there somebody here doing university research on Dotabuff every month?

            Starfire

              Hi Abyss,

              I argue that video games provide better educational environments than our own schools. For example most games (Such as Dota) allow for huge amounts of collaboration not found in traditional educational settings. This forum is a good example of people sharing their experiences and expertise. Teachers would love if their students were going out of their way to discuss lesson content out of the classroom.

              Also although people play Dota for fun it is also an incredibly complex game with a steep learning curve. People have had to put time and effort in to learning the game before they are successful within it.

              Hope this gives you a little more understanding. I am very happy to give you more information if you wish

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              Starfire

                Hi Potato,

                Apologies, I did not know that people were regularly using this forum for research purposes. The research I am currently doing will also be published towards the end of this year so hopefully will have useful outcomes in the future

                шойгу где шарды

                  Man, I chose the wrong field for my postgrad apparently :)
                  Wish I had a legit excuse to fuck around in dota on grant money

                  Chair

                    Currently invovled in some form of education?

                    Im a carpenter, therefore cannot take the questionaire?

                    Starfire

                      Hi (|/) 0_o (|/),

                      I am not going to deny that playing and exploring Dota as a post grad student is pretty awesome. There is however, a lot of really interesting/useful research being done on how video games may be better used to supplement education in the future. Plus the data analysis for this study is going to be very arduous! Not all fun and games unfortunately!

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                      Starfire

                        Hi Yorak Hunt,

                        Thank you for your interest in my research. Unfortunately as you are not currently in an educational institution you are not eligible for this study

                        🍩🍪Cookie🍪🍩


                          I argue that video games provide better educational environments than our own schools. For example most games (Such as Dota) allow for huge amounts of collaboration not found in traditional educational settings. This forum is a good example of people sharing their experiences and expertise. Teachers would love if their students were going out of their way to discuss lesson content out of the classroom.

                          There's no way that's gonna work in a real class. People don't enjoy writing essays about topics they never thought about, they don't enjoy solving rigorous math/physics problems, they don't enjoy being told what to do.

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                          Jacked

                            I refuse to participate in this survey.

                            Starfire

                              Hi Cookie,

                              Thank you for your message. You are correct that many students don't enjoy learning when required to write essays and solve rigorous problems but this is exactly the problem. In dota you have at least partially memorised every characters strength and weaknesses. You also have a very good understanding of tactics and strategy. This would have taken a huge amount of learning to get to this point. If prior to playing the same I asked you to read about the characters and write me an essay about them to show me your understanding then, as you mentioned, it would not be enjoyable.

                              Many practise found in the classroom are based on very outdated theories and ideas about what makes effective learning. Unintentionally, video games have started to show us that maybe the traditional classroom setting of memorising information and writing essays or doing tests is not the best way to learn.

                              I would be more than happy to discuss this with you further if you wish :)

                              Starfire

                                Hi HanYolo,

                                You have every right to refuse :)

                                🍩🍪Cookie🍪🍩

                                  I'd disagree because i do coaching in dota, and one thing that i know for a fact is that learning by experience, like most dota players do, takes forever

                                  for example, it took me 1 year from 1k to 5k, while most people take lik 3-4 years, then i took a break from trying to improve as i didn't need more mmr.

                                  but when i started again it took me a week from 5 to 6k, while 99% of people don't even reach 5k itself, yet alone to get 6k in a week.

                                  The problem is the way i learned wasn't trough experience, but rather analysis, I did all of that boring classroom stuff.

                                  Rigorous work is way less fun, but produces way better results.

                                  If dota was thought in an actual school, i wold reckon that the students would be like 4-5k by the end of the first year.

                                  But this forum doesn't produce many results, as you can even see from the overall MMR increases from people who were here for a long while, basically literally the same learning curve as someone learning passively trough experience.

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                                  👉👉P O S I T I V I T Y :D

                                    Done my part

                                    Good luck :)

                                    Btw my graduation is kinda weird, I only have middle school education but I'm in a special program

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                                    Kotato

                                      Mr Meeseek,
                                      So what is the estimation strategy here? How do you deal with self-selection and endogeneity of the treatment? What is the control group? Is this more of a qualitative research then? And last but not the least question: how a post-graduate student have not reached a higher mmr bracket after 1000 games? Are you stupid yourself?

                                      Starfire

                                        Thank you again for your message Cookie,

                                        I agree with you that learning via experience is not always effective and that is not what I am trying to prove within this study. The main point to this research is showing that video games provide better affinity (learning) spaces than a typical school. Previous research suggests that effective affinity spaces should: have a common endeavour, no segregation by age, no segregation by ability, everybody can produce content if they wish, knowledge is shared freely within the space, participation can occur in many forms, there are many routes to higher statuses, there is no boss only leaders, all roles are reciprocal (sometimes the student is the teacher and vice versa), learning is proactive and self-propelled and finally feedback is gained from peers.

                                        This is what current research suggests yet traditional classrooms do not show many of these attributes. Video games on the whole show these much better.

                                        I do not believe that turning education into a big video games which improve students learning however, I do believe education should take a look at what video game developers are doing to encourage learning within their games. I have worked as a secondary school teacher for a number of years and the educational system seems broken and outdated. You have gone out of your way to master a skill. No one has forced you to do it. You have not been motivated to do so by money or fame or better career prospects yet you have accomplished something very impressive. Not only that but you are willing to give up your time to coach other players aswell. You are not alone in doing this yet I do not know of many students that would go to these kind of lengths within school.

                                        It is interesting that you mention people on this forum have not seen many gains in their skill. I would have assumed that collaboration in this type of environment would have produced a positive outcome. Maybe a future research project there!

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                                        Kotato

                                          so the correlation between answers about dota and education is all you need to have a scientific finding? alrighty then, I answered identically to both parts of the interview, go for 99% significance levels

                                          Starfire

                                            Hi Kotato,

                                            Thank you for your questions. This is very much an exploratory study as research in this area is still very new. As such there is a lot of limitations to this particular study however, it will do its job in informing future research and directions.

                                            In regards to the questionnaire it has been adapted from previous research by Schrader (2008). The questionnaire has shown an alpha reliability of 0.83. A principal component analysis gives 4 factors.

                                            This is more of a qualitative study but the likert scale in this study provides better information for my needs (along with being able to recruit much more participants).

                                            As this is not an experimental design a control group is not needed.

                                            Finally unfortunately I do not have an answer for that one! I have never actively tried to improve my game play and just enjoy it how it is as a bit of an escape. That is the best reason I can give.

                                            It is very late where I am based now so will reply to any further comments tomorrow. Thank you to everyone that has already completed the questionnaire.

                                            Reference: Schrader, P. G. & McCreery, M., 2006. How Did You Get so Good? An Investigation of Expertise in the World of Warcraft. Madison, WI, Paper Presented at the Games, Learning, and Society Conference .

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                                            🍩🍪Cookie🍪🍩

                                              Valve doesn't do almost anything to make the game better to be learned to be honest, they just made the game look addicting, then people will want to learn by themselves.

                                              The sounds, the visuals, the medals, the hype.

                                              MMR by itself is a lucritive incentive.

                                              Something in school is that grades aren't looked at like an incentive, but rather a must.

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                                              AloneInKyōto

                                                Valve didn’t do shit, they stole the game from Blizzard :p

                                                bearcat0611

                                                  This is extremely true. Almost everyone in my school is obsessed with their grades. A B is cause for a mental breakdown. Everyone is extremely stressed. When we do group work in math there are people that are so obsesive that they have to check and question every single thing. I swear half of them would consult their notes on 2 + 2 because they are so paranoid about losing a single point.

                                                  Kotato

                                                    do you mean Schrader, P. G., & McCreery, M. (2008). The acquisition of skill and expertise in massively multiplayer online games. Educational Technology Research and Development, 56(5-6), 557-574. ?

                                                    Well their research is a bit outdates since 2008, and many papers have developed their research idea to look at the video games and tried to generalize it to educational contexts. For example:
                                                    Bann et al. (2017) https://digitalcommons.uncfsu.edu/jri/vol3/iss1/12/ (I am sure you have already looked into it already)

                                                    A control group is smth that does not only apply to experimental or quasi-experimental designs, it is a basic concept of qualitative research.

                                                    So far, your research would be only mildly interesting in 2018. It is ok for a master thesis, but a doctoral student should find something more interesting to do..

                                                    murderer

                                                      I will not give my insights and help in the spoilage of future of more children

                                                      Jacked

                                                        if dota was taught in school. you'd probably still have the same distribution. you'll stil have your exceptional A students that goto dota college (5k+) and the rest that can't do it.

                                                        there's only so much you can teach. a lot of it is aptitude as well. well it's both.

                                                        Starfire

                                                          Hi Cookie,

                                                          You are correct that games look attractive i.e sounds, visuals etc and this likely motivates people into the playing the game. So why can't education be more like this? Education should offer amazing insights into the world around us yet many students find it boring. Also as Bearcat says, why do we allow many students to get so stressed out over grades? Students get so paranoid that they start developing a need to avoid failure. This means that rather than challenge themselves in lessons they will take the easy option or do the minimum about of work required to get the grade. Video games on the other hand actively encourage failure and trial and error.

                                                          I don't have all the answers but there is interesting contrasts between what I believe education should look like and video game culture

                                                          Starfire

                                                            Hi Kotato,

                                                            Yes I did mean that reference (Was around midnight when I posted so brain was not completely turned on).

                                                            You are right that the study is becoming a little outdated. I would have loved to have done a more in depth study however, time constraints have meant I have needed to go for something simpler. The questionnaire developed within that study fitted by needs well which is why I decided to use it.

                                                            There is some really interesting research on how people have started trying to incorporate video game culture into the classroom (Like the one you have linked). One of the reasons I chose Dota is because most of that research (Including both we have now mentioned) is done on MMOGs. There is a lot of merit to using these types of games however, I believe there is also merit in looking at MOBA games.

                                                            I am still unsure why you believe a control group is needed in this study?

                                                            This is only an initial study which will lead into my master's thesis later this year which is why the time constraints have limited me for this part of the study. I certainly agree that if I was doing this as a doctoral study I would be in trouble!

                                                            🍩🍪Cookie🍪🍩

                                                              Because when you fuck up in a game you get to try over 100 times till you get it right, if you fuck up in one class you fail the semester

                                                              Starfire

                                                                Hi Cookie,

                                                                And this is one of the many problems in education. It should not be like this. Failure should be encouraged as a learning tool

                                                                not getting help

                                                                  Good luck.

                                                                  Do you play dota regularly? If so maybe we can play some matches.

                                                                  Starfire

                                                                    Hi not getting help,

                                                                    I tend to go in phases of playing quite a lot and then going many months without playing. I travel a lot so this is one of the reasons for this. Feel free to add me and we can play some matches

                                                                    BlackXargon

                                                                      Hi. Can you add me on Steam?

                                                                      Im currently creating an e-sports product and we can probably collab on some general concepts about esports.

                                                                      Starfire

                                                                        Hi BlackXargon,

                                                                        I have added you on steam. I look forward to speaking with you about your product

                                                                        Kotato

                                                                          by control group i meant the following http://methods.sagepub.com/reference/encyclopedia-of-survey-research-methods/n102.xml

                                                                          I thought master student is a graduate student and phd is a post-graduate, i am wrong here?

                                                                          Starfire

                                                                            Hi Kotato,

                                                                            As I am not doing any kind of intervention or treatments on participants, merely asking them about their experiences a control group is not necessary. A control group wouldn't even be possible anyway. I could have got Dota players not in education or student's that do not play Dota to do a similar questionnaire however, their results would not have added much to this study.

                                                                            A post-graduate is anything after finishing the first degree i.e. post graduate certificate, post graduate diploma, masters and PhD. I am looking to do a PhD in the future, possibly around a similar topic of gamification in education however, it will certainly be more refined that this particular study.

                                                                            шойгу где шарды

                                                                              I actually never heard someone calling a masters degree postgraduate either, always referred to it as a graduate degree.

                                                                              I don’t have much expertise in social sciences research due to a more quantitative-oriented background, but I have to agree with Kotato on most points - unless you use a control group to highlight the potential benefits of Dota’s learning model, the whole study might just be theoretical talking with little evidence.

                                                                              Also could I ask what insight do you want to draw from this survey? From the first glance I couldn’t see much meaning in my answers to your potential research. Also, a piece of unqualified advice, that I only base on one course on Survey Methodology (which I almost entirely skipped) - please refine the questionnaire, at least the second part. The first part (Dota-related) is already a bit naive with the assumption that people you asked are highly skilled and adequate - while you might know very well from your own bracket that they are much more likely to jungle on an invoker, than discuss strategies with their team. The second part is really confusing, as you might be too explicit in your comparison of academic education to a game of dota - if you could mask those questions somehow, could be more beneficial and allow you to escape a few biases from a respondent. Anyways, gotta run now, will continue my incoherent rambling later

                                                                              Starfire

                                                                                Hi (|/) 0_o (|/),

                                                                                Maybe differing countries refer to them differently.

                                                                                You are right and this study is very much theoretical. I do not intend to be able to give any recommendations following the results of this study however, it will give will give direction to more quantitative and experimental research in the future. This small study is really to see if there is something here worth exploring in more detail.

                                                                                At the moment I don't want to divulge too much into what I am looking for in your answers just in case other people are reading this and it might add further bias. If you look at the research paper I mentioned to Kotato it gives detail on how the questionnaire was originally developed. Lastly I completely agree with you that the second part is very obviously a comparison with very similar questions and was something I thought about a lot. I decided not to mask it as firstly when I complete the principle concept analysis on it will not be as much of a problem. Secondly I decided that for what I am looking for I wanted people to be directly comparing Dota 2 and education. I did consider doing interviews to get the same type of information but decided at this stage it would be more beneficial to get a large number of participants views.

                                                                                I am very much aware of the many limitations within this study however, if I am able to get a good number of participants (Which it looks like I will) I believe it will highlight some interesting discussion points which can be further researched and developed in a more controlled environment.

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