@abyss - 9th pick voker into 10th pick TA isn't unheard of. this will hopefully help players to look at the matchup with a curious mind instead of going in and playing 'standard' and losing hard because they don't understand it.
i've watched rank 200 invokers get dumpstered by TA and end up Clueless on what to do. 'i can't do anything'
While yes its an extremly difficult matchups, i hope this got people thinking about the difference's in builds.
@gecko - Quas - Exort can beat TA for the laning phase (it shouldn't, but it can) correct, however midgame you're going to be nothing vs a TA. I'd be curious as to what your build would be and if any of the information i provided was helpful.
If you look at the stats on paper, Refraction out classes 99% of invokers kit in terms of mana -> damage efficiency.
Do whatever you want, you will rely on TA being a potato to win the lane
Which might actually work for the majority of the dota 2 community
If you look at the stats on paper, Refraction out classes 99% of invokers kit in terms of mana -> damage efficiency.
nice "STATS" bro
@inx4c
yeah thats the build that's had the most success for me, talking to Waga and he agrees that 2-0-2 into 3-4-2 is probably the most effective, however he said that the best invoker he's faced against the TA matchup was a Q/W invoker. but unless TA seriously messes up i'm pretty sure you don't get a chance in that lane.
@ywn
thanks fam, Real talk. What would your approach be..
2-0-3 -> 2-1-3 and get sentry in lane, u can solo kill the TA sometimes if hes not careful and its pretty easy to kill him with +1
While i do really like exort based builds, Q/w feels significantly stronger midgame.
I'm not sure what you're gameplans going to be if you're just trading farm against a TA
doesn't the TA just farm ancients with a laning advantage and hits his timings faster? 3 points exort you're pretty commited to going a full exort based build.. i'm assuming if you go full 3 points you'll be getting really late wex right?
Maybe going a uel might mitigate alot of TA's Item timings.
that builds good for lane, but after lane you're in a pickle
Well written man, take a note quas exort build could also work with forge spirit helping burn the refraction.
Could you do another writing about sf - ta match up pls? Dominating her in the mid late game but having hard time in the laning phase (especially if you got clutch TA who doesnt bother to dive tower with salve - refraction combo) https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/4128893446
@exiLe I wrote one on SF vs MEEPO however it is now outdated based on the glyph changes
https://www.dotabuff.com/topics/2018-07-31-shadow-fiend-mid
TA vs SF is very polarised and standard there honestly isn't much too it. TA will win the matchup if both players have equal skill/understanding of the matchup. SF can win the matchup if there is a skillgap or greater understanding. If there is enough requests i can do a write up for it more indepth about little neuances and tricks. however i'm less experience'd on the SF side of things than i am on the TA side of the matchup, I usually counter pick SF with TA.
@ywn, yeah i feel that on a spiritual level, but is the 3rd point worth it, +12 damage and 10 on forge spirit gets negated by the refraction and you'll most likely still get out cs'd. I think the sweet spot is 2-1-2 however i could be wrong.
@pimp
k, first picking invoker in shadowpool/beginning of this acc. Invoker is the hero i pick first when my team is fighting and it usually transitions into 4 other cores and a lost game.
I have a smurf with 78% invoker winrate who is 6k, which is also irrelivant.
Read the information provided instead of writing players off based on a inflated/deflated winrate.
you could even argue, i lost alot of games figuring out what didn't work :).. -
So how would my Ancient 55% winrate invoker god handle the lane?
i think topson played qw invo vs sumail templar at TI and did pretty well, it shouldn't be that bad of a matchup, right?
assuming it's not 1v1..
Пријавите се да бисте поставили коментар.
Hey fam, This is a pretty Elongated perspective/damage numbers guide for Laning phase
TA's damage numbers are higher in almost every regard and a good TA will abuse this and snowball the matchup, if you read into the guide, you'll hopefully be able to mitigate the damage and offer yourself the best chance at a midgame and put yourself into a good oppertunity to play some dota.
Ta is one of the hardest matchups for invoker, however this doesn't mean the lane is unwinable or the game is unwinable,
Quas wex is by far more superior for the meta/midgame however there is an extremely high chance you'll never make it there and TA will deny everything.
Fundamentals - And The Damage stats/NUMBERS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ta PsyBlades are PURE damage, armour doesn't matter
TA has 56 base damage level 1 - 66 damage with branch faire wraith. Refraction is 20-40-60-80 bonus damage for 3-4-5-6 respectively
TA gets 2 base damage a level.
Level 3 TA has 70 base damage + 40 damage from refraction (110 damage for 4 hits)
Aquila lvl 3 TA has 79 base damage
Level 5 TA has 108 damage w/o refraction and 168 damage
Invoker -
Items
Null start +7 damage
Aquila + 10 damage (Armour is negligable in this matchup)
Phase boots = +22 damage
invoker has 38 base damage + 10 from null faerie gg branch
Invoker gets 4 Base damage a level up
Level 1 exort = +12 damage
Level 2 Exort = +24 damage
Lvl 3 Exort = +36 damage
Level 1 Quas = +3 HP regen
level 2 quas = +9 HP regen
level 3 Quas = +15 HP regen
Tornado damage 150 mana= 70 + 45 per level of wex
105 damage
150 damage
195 Damage
EMP Damage = 100 +75 per level of wex
100
175
250
Meteor Damage 200 mana = contact 57.5 + 11.5 per second (17.5contact damage +3.5dps for minimum of 3 seconds per exort level)
Assuming meatball lands and they are second in meatball
Level 1 exort = Approx 220 damage
level 2 exort = Approx 275
Level 3 exort = approx 350 damage
Sunstrike 175 mana = 100+ 62.5 pure damage per level
level 1 = 100
level 2 = 162.5
Level 3 = 225
Forge spirit 75 mana = 20 second duration + 22 damage (+10 second duration on quas + 10 damage on exort)
22 damage
32 damage
42 damage
Alacrity = 60 mana (attack speed/damage are the same based on wex/exort)
10
25
40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Builds (Quas wex, -> phase rush into urn offers the highest postlaning phase killthreat against a TA)
Quas - Wex
(you are essentially Conceding the early laning phase and relying on midgame Kill potential, IF you can manage to play a standard laning phase without getting dumpstered by the (double your damage) TA, you'll be in a great spot) There is a very good chance you will be level 5 while the TA is free farmed lvl 7 by 6mins.
2 points Quas - 3 points Wex at by level 5
level 2 You will have oppertunities to Tornado range creeps.
level 3 you should put 2 points in Quas and will have arguably enough sustain to lane, 9 hp regen hopefully will be enough to sustain.
Level 3, the TA will guarentee to get 4 last hits per wave with her 110 damage, There is no way unless you seriously outplay the TA that you can out CS her with just Auto attacks.
Ta should hit level 6 when invoker hits level 5. In this lane you can go for blades of attack before boots however you must make sure you can get your boots before TA hits 6 and place a sentry in your lane.
IF you can burn TA's refraction from right clicks, you can now place emp -> tornado -> coldsnap for 450 damage + rightclicks
This will clear about 70% of TA's hp, any rotation should net a kill.
TA Can and will refract your emp however she will get manaburnt.
If you can get to level 3 Quas + phase boots, you will be able to sustain yourself mid indefinately.
Is it worth EMPing for range creep's/range creep denies (Yes)
If you can time the damage, EMp will manaburn and deal damage to a range creep, it will also zone the TA in order to give you a deny on a range creep, however this is difficult to do and is costly if you miss.
I personally think this build is essentially saying 'you will free farm, however i'll have midgame killthreats/gank oppertunities'
You offer alot for early midgame fights with this build, regardless of how far behind you are.
Pro's - highest sustain, High surivability, rotation potential, High midgame kill potential, Highest mobility
Con's - lowest CSing ability, low farming ability, Can't jungle
Quas - Exort
2-0-3 (i am going to try and farm this lane, build)
Exort level 1 will give you comparable damage to the TA (psy blades level 1) - you should sunstrike for range creeps if you can't reach it and TA will deny it, the level 2 powerspike is incredibly important. Once refraction is online TA will have a significant CSing damage advantage and you'll struggle, however if you can manage to stay 'on par or ahead' on TA, you can mitigate refraction damage advantage with your bonus 22 damage from forge spirit.
This build i would favour going double null - into treads, There is an argument to be made about going Aquila and attempting to push howevver there is a very good chance you'll get kicked out of lane and the psyblades will farm your forge spirit regardless of Aquila bonus armour.
after TA hits 6 you don't have a way to stay in lane however you do have coldsnap Icewall forge spirit combos which can punish a TA extremely hard if she missplays.
A non refracted TA you have comparable damage, Refracted TA will have an extra 74 damage on you.
This build is extremly reliant on sidelanes doing well and you earning bonus gold from sunstrikes.
Pro's - Strongest forge spirit, Can contest CS, comeback jungle potential
Con's - Low midgame killthreat, low surivability
value point Exort - Quas - wex
3-1-1 into 3-4-1
This build is one of the better builds in terms of farming potential in the 'early' laning phase (you get a lvl 1 forge and +12 damage)
your sustain is significantly higher than the standard exort build because you're maxing your quas. Your midgame timings are significantly lower. your aim for this build is to get as much as you can before level 3 with exort, and from level 3-5-7 be able to stay in lane and not get bully'd out.
You can also do a cheeky Coldsnap icewall(tornado) meteor combo with +1 hero for an early killthreat, however this will cost your your entire manapool, so you better make sure it lands. level 1 meteor is incredibly underated, it will deal approx 220 damage and burn an entire refraction.
This build will lower your Powerspikes, however it might give you the ability to CS in lane. You'll come online alot slower than your normal Quas wex build.
Offers a 100 damage Sunstrike for sidelane KSing
pro's -early Csing, access to ghost walk, High regen, Access to forge spirit
Con's - Low killthreat, Low mobility
Exort
1-1-3
okay, so this build is saying 'I am going to fight you for CS' Your build should be focus'd on Forge spirit CSING. Don't fall into the trap of using alacrity over forge spirit for csing. TA Refraction beats alacrity at all stages of the lane and you won't be able to contest with it.
You offer a 225 damage nuke for sidelanes.
You have extremely low regen to sustain in lane, so you have to buy extra Regen (tango sets and salves etc) So you have to make sure you're dodging psy blades.
an early point in wex offers a killthreat with (coldsnap, tornado, Meatball) from level 4 onwards, This will require you to ferry a mango or get a juicy arcane rune/regen rune.
Your forge spirit deals 42 base damage for 20 seconds, along with your 90 base damage (104 with double null) (54 damage +36 damage from exort) .. You can theoretically contest 168 damage TA. (you still have less damage, however you have alot higher attack speed considering your forge spirit can attack aswell :))
The hardest point for this lane is the level 3 powerspike, and you'll usually want to sunstrike the range creep level 1 or try and snipe a kill in a sidelane.
IF TA hits level 2 first and refract denies a wave you're going to get snowballed on and this build offers almost zero comeback potential asside from a sunstrike to sidelanes.
you can also meatball a lane to shove it if the TA is applying alot of pressure.
Pro's - Highest damage poential, highest csing capabilities, jungling potential, high sunstrike damage for sidelanes, Lane Shove
Con's - Lowest sustain, low mobility, weak midgame, low rotation capabilities
Midgame -
If you're playing an exort based build, your objective is to pressure towers with forge spirit, alacrity and your good ol rightclickz and become your own walking deathball. Usually you park yourself in an area farming, contribute sunstrikes for global kills and only really 'hunt' heros if they enter into your area, rather than you actively hunting for them.
(tornado, meatball, deafening blast)
Ta's timing windows heavily revolve around Roshan + ancients. there is a good chance your Exort build will struggle to infiltrate the TA's Traps and ancients, which essentially gives TA a free midgame timing window where she can farm Deso + blink without feeling very pressured. Your exort build is essentially saying 'you're going to do you, and i'm going to do me'. You don't have an easy way to disrupt the TA from farming, however you'll have a very fast aghs and you have higher carry potential due to having faster farming abilities.
Quas wex - You are the Ganker/tempo controller, You gave up on contesting TA's farm in order to shut her down in the midgame, You have untill the TA gets bkb to do this, so you have to be fast and predict her movements.
Ghost walk will let your infultrate the Trap lines and give you extremely high kill oppertunity, you naturally build into a spirit vessle (ideal) or an urn (good enough) which will let you chain your coldsnaps, these will burn her refraction. usually you'll want to have ghost walk + cold snap invoked, you'll go full wex and ghost walk and infultrate looking for support kills (this will give you urn charges), your natural combo is coldsnap + urn (instantly invoke Emp and use it), You then position for right clicks, after you have dealt considerable amount of damage, Tornado for the finisher.
The dream with this build is usually Phase + windlace + spirit vessle with max wex, You're a max move speed machine that has invis and can oblitterate teamfights with EMP, you have to remember that sometimes you don't have to kill a hero for them to be out of the action (eg. A weaver has 550 mana pool, Max emp deals 625 manaburn)
You build into standard Aghs +mobility.
Max EMP is 625 damage, btw.
Conclusion
I have been favouring 2-1-2 into 3-4-2 however if you fall behind you're going to get left behind, Exort based builds are in my comfort zone, i think you have enough damage from lvl 2 meatball to offer a killthreat if the TA over steps her welcome, any more exort feels overkill and you're going to become food in the midgame.
a 2-1-1 or 2-1-2 build will delay you alot when it comes to midgame however it will atleast offer you a midgame compared to going all in on Exort. I think fundamentally you're going to have a much better chance at playing the game if you go for value points in exort and then transition into a Max Wex, quas wex build. Because there is an extremly high chance you'll get deleted from the game from a perfect CSing TA free farming the lane without a forge spirit to help burn refraction.
I think double null or Single null into boots of choice rush, is probably the best variation of build, i'd probably favour phase over treads because although treads offer more damage and tankability, if a Ta trap or two pop from under you, you're probably going to want to phase out of there.
i think urn builds are almost nessasary and you should prioritise going for one.
I think statistically, you'll have a much better chance midgame if you focus on disrupting TA's powerspikes instead of working on your own.. (don't go for midas aghs travels) (TA will bkb and 2 hit your backline before you can even do anything)
Build towards items that help you do this, Forcestaff, urn, euls are all good options to get before aghs.
I think aquila is negligable in this matchup because psyblades will wreck you anyway.
YOU need a sentry in lane at TA level 6 timing, get pooled it if your team isn't satan, if they are... Buy one yourself.
TL:DR
Value point exort, build quas wex and get an urn, its better.