Lol. I occasionally get criticized for picking tb, peeps saying just go lycan he's better and I just don't buy it.
TB can be killed in the lane stage tho, lycan can hit the jungle earlier (and pubs seem to completely ignore the jungle)
Both can jungle at lvl 1 so I don't really get your comment. Both seem to jungle equally fast to me. TB is pretty easy to gank I agree.
Pros would probably exploit Lion against TB if he was picked for rat purposes, then heavy gankers/nukers. Theorycrafting though.
Pros would have to be able to either safe lane or jungle TB. They would need to be prepared to have TB safe lane, but preferably jungle him I would think. Thus the draft might be a bit weird.
^
Why? They operate in very different manners. TB is also able to gank his safe lane at level 2-3 rather easily and effectively.
Lycan can't be replaced for a couple of reasons:
1) He is tanky.
2) He is way better at 5 man pushes.
3) He is insanely hard to gank.
4) He comes online with just a vlads while TB needs at least 2 items.
I disagree with a lot of this but to each his own. They're different heroes played in different ways and the comparisons between them aren't that similar. Terrorblade has a lot of success in pub's due to the nature of public games but that changes in competitive team games and I don't think he would be picked at all.
@Sam TB can do decently 5 man pushing though :(
1) TB can 5 man push faster than Lycan given same farm
2) With regards to pushing alone, TB comes online at the same time as Lycan while farming faster. Admittedly Lycan can join fights earlier.
i think terror blade would get rekkt in pro scene lol. he doesn't have a 522-ms-no-slow buttow thus he can get 1 shot by some lion or some other nuke. he would really be a wasted core space on the team, in teamfights he is shit, he can only rat, and against a competent team (pro) he will not be able to do so. he is godlike in pubs cuz players are retarded. gg wp
I think his main problem is that he needs a lot of farm & can't see him in other position than safe lane farmer. He is countered by 5 man early push (current meta). He can't do shit without 2 big items in 5v5 & doesn't have escape mechanism. He is super bad vs well coordinated teams. He will be probably a really situational pick, not 1st round pick/ban.
I think they'll block half the camps in the beginning like they do to Chen's or Enchantresses in competitive. He'll have to lane where he risks being killed or go into the enemies jungle where he also risks getting killed.
tb will be pretty weak in competitive, even spectre is better in lane when faced :(
and his is one of the weakest team fight hero
if u pick him as lastpick surprise pick against no real counter lineup he will wreck faces
but if u get him early and he gets countered then he will be shit just like slark
I'd like to see some proof Sampson is all I am saying. When I jungle either I feel like around the 10 min mark both are very close in farm which is usually when I start leaving jungle to push towers (rosh then push on lycan). I can do my own bot matches and count my gold 10 mins in but I'm probably not the best at jungling with either.
What's standard lycan jungle items? Tangos, quell blade, ring of prot into bassy -> vlads?
seeing as the only 3 heroes i play is tinker/lycan/terrorblade i would hands down say lycan u can farm x2 faster as lycan and he pushes just as fast (a little slower but still fast enough) and u can do more with the wolves than u can illusions ( Early game ) plus roshan TB cant rosh and tb has no escape and whoever is saying TB can even come close to jungling as well as Lycan is just fucking nub.... buuuuut in saying all this lycan is alot better but TB is alot more fun imo :) and on average the games im winning with lycan finish around 20-30mins mark my tb games are finish on average around 25-35 min mark i find lycan farms alot quicker in my last game i had vlad deso basher AC by 23 min (with only 2 kills ) i find with TB by 23 mins u might have manta and maybe a half your next item with lycan i have about 160 last hits by 20mins and thats whilsts stopping to do roshan wolves are great for farming a lane whilsts u jungle and im afraid TB illusions cant really do that early game unless they are in range form and they last not as long as wolves.... also Howl is OP and u can push anytime with wolves howl with TB u generally have to wait 100 years for ur range form to come only again and TB has mana issues early game :)
Really? All those items at 23 mins? I'm calling shenanigans on that, that's like 650gpm at 23 mins in. Oh but wait your profile is private so we can't actually look up the match, I'll just take your word for it then.
806845162 < ---- my last game enjoy and perhaps u dont know how to farm with lycan :)? my main is 5.6k mmr and i only play lycan/TB/tinker soooooo im pretty sure i know how to play them lol but anyways im off to bed im just giving my honest opinion feel free to disagree :)
i have no desire to argue with you or anyone :) we all have our own opinions i simply believe lycan to be the better hero after 400 games with him and 112 with TB i feel i should know wat im talking about but perhaps you are just a better TB player then i and perhaps i am a better Lycan player who knows thats the beauty of this game :) hero strength can be determined by the player behind it :) Night guys x
with both heroes you can farm lane + jungle at the same time but tb is faster especially once he gets some items
but lycan offers so much more as a hero that it's obvious tb will not be the "new" lycan
congratulations on that gpm with lycan
http://dotabuff.com/players/68379658/heroes?metric=economy
though that's my average gpm with tb
you are so confrontational yet so evasive
whut
That match lycan is anonymous, normal matchmaking, austrailia. It also finished an hour ago while this guy was making posts...
I think tb is better at taking towers simply due to meta. You get up to a tower and pop it and tower dies in like 5 seconds. Lycan can't do that sorry. But lycan can do other things.
I'm not convinced tb would be trash at pro level cus pros are good at what they do, they could expliot his strengths and possibly cover his weaknesses. But I see the points. Would be fun to watch though.
apart from 1-2 chinese, pro don't know how to farm, which is the main thing of tb
(and pro will just pick a lion + ench, and no longer care of the late game)
so yeah surprise pick might work, as slark, else no
"806845162 < ---- my last game enjoy and perhaps u dont know how to farm with lycan :)? my main is 5.6k mmr and i only play lycan/TB/tinker soooooo im pretty sure i know how to play them lol but anyways im off to bed im just giving my honest opinion feel free to disagree :)"
What self respecting person with 5.6k mmr is going to calling themselves "Zephyr l Purge"?? not to mention he has 1000 mmr more than you claim to have.
The game you linked had 1 player that wasn't anon, he is only listed as being in normal ranked games, and he has 47% win rate with hardly any wins. Seems like you picked lycan on a new smurf account and got 185 CS in 23 minutes. Pretty easy to PvE when your opponents don't know how to play the game.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/762270428 lycan does farm fast i think if you try you can get around 10 cs/min in a lot of games
http://dotabuff.com/matches/607582832 but tb is faster and you can easily break the 10cs/min mark very early into the game already
the reason lycan is a way better hero though is because of different reasons, he offers howl for his team, has better laning (even wins a lot of matchups 1v1), can always easily solo rosh, is harder to kill and stop from splitpushing, the list goes on and on.. and you can firstpick that hero np without worrying for counter picks
TB in his current state is hardly pickworthy over other options in almost any case, he just got rekt by the nerfs
Both those games linked by Matrice and Purge are totally overall stomps. Is there anything from a semi close game out of you two?
Farm debate might be over but I did two easy bot matches during lunch and my tb came out ahead. At 10 mins only doing jungle, no towers down, my lycan had brown boots, quell blade and vlads and 500g pocketed. My tb had wraith band, an aquilla, quell blade, brown boots and yasha and a couple hundred gold pocketed. That's like 1000g more or 100 more gpm. Now my lycan jungle probably sucks but tb can definitely keep up.
When you jungle lycan what do you guys build? I went tangos, quell, ring of prot, then brown boots, bassy into vlads. Is it better to forgo tangos altogether and just run back to base? Skip bassy go straight for morbid mask part?
http://dotabuff.com/matches/803298675
heres a game where my team is 40k exp behind and some gold behind
mark, don't worry about farming faster as tb (in pur wood), tb is top 3 fastest wood farmer (and the 2nd is bat, when they know how to stack both big spot at the same time)
-to farm faster as lycan, you also have to suicide in the wood, at early-
Edit: here is some more from behind:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/681640015
http://dotabuff.com/matches/667164591
Who's the fastest wood farmer, enigma?
I do suicide in woods, so on lycan would you go no tangos and just die right after buying items? I just want to know what the item progression is, quell blade + bassy, then vlads?
yeah enigma is.
(I'm not a wood lycan, but he suffer the same problem as tb in the very early lvl, aswell as having a use of buying very little item (all part of vlad ^^=)
He's french. Besides Lion and Enchantress, does Chen's creep stealing skill work on his illusions as well?
On another topic, do you think Pit Lord will ever see the light of Captain's Mode?
Im a lycan picker and depeding on the spawn of the jungle I can farm faster than tb also suiciding lycan, when optimal getting lvl 7 at aprox 6min30, doing roshan at aprox 7-8min with vlads, but terror blade is better late game hands down. I still have much to improve with terror thou
@deep and difference between 5k and 7k is non existant u still get matched with same players
so..
@vaikiss you do not get matched with the same players. If you are 5k you will most likely play with 5k's on your team and the enemy team which is fine. If you are 7k your team mates are paying for the difference in mmr and are probably 300-400 mmr lower than the enemy team hence where they make up the difference from and why it's harder to be at 7k than at 5k. You literally need to carry your team mates. Also, once you are 7k you can safely say you have a more than positive win rate against 5k players which they do not have against you.
im 5k = everyone 5k
im 6k = everyone is 5k + 1 guy in enemy team is 6k too
im 7k = everyone on my team is 4-5k and enemy team couple 6k's and 5k's
so how the fuck is that not playing with same players ?
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Banned every time? He rats as well as lycan imo, and just like lycan requires specific counters due to his high armor and ult.