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    ᶲᶲ ﴾InÐꬲx﴿ ᶲᶲ

      The PA I understand the point they want to get to, but PA was NERF. And you don't nerf a weak hero.

      Нравственный калека

        One of the dumbest articles I've read lately. All three heroes are very strong now.

        Mars has a very small cooldown on arena, which simply blocks all ranged heroes and destroy positioning of enemy team. And SF and PA are capable of destroying almost any hero in a split of a second.


          @Blind the Wind, thanks for proving my point.
          Knowing that someone is defending a 48.5% win rate hero (SF) and a 47.5% win rate hero (Mars), as well as a 43.5%! win rate hero (PA) tells me I hit the nail on the head, when choosing the most overrated heroes to write about.


            @Blind the Wind

            No wonder you are a Crusader.


              Winrate doesn't lie no matter how you polish a turd


                @Blind the Wind
                Proud SF player can't let his hero be criticized?

                PETROS [BNCE]

                  @Blind the Wind
                  Lol, normal skill player trying to criticize a divine player.

                  No Incoming Chat

                    lul guy trying to be smart gets bullied instead


                      Great article, all these heroes arent great but they are all fun, which is why they have high pickrates despite their poor winrates. I agree with all your points.

                      I think Mars could use a little love next patch, a large reason for his populairty is because in comparison to other offlaners, he is alot stronger. Alot of traditional offlane heroes are very bad at the moment. I think spear of mars should have a range of 1200 at all levels and maybe increase the spear projectile speed a little. It would make his initations harder to react to.

                      SF has been trash for a long time, hes a hero which wins lane then loses game. I think his ultimate could use a rework, I would prefer if this ultimate was less extreme. Currently ultimate either oneshots you or deals mediocore damage if your not point blank of the skill. If they removed the oneshot aspect of the ultimate instead making the damage consistent and heavily reduced the cast time SF would be a much better, and healthier hero. SF would also appricate a new item which provides mana regen, stats and damage, which isnt orchid. If Dragon Lance + Falcon Blade built into an item it would be ok for SF. Mabye solar crest SF?

                      Phantom Assassin is a very polarizing hero, pre battlefury + deso + bkb she is useless. Her laning phase is decent thanks to her great base stats and mobility but she is useless in the mid game, where the meta magic mid heroes will come and chain kill her. Once you get battlefury + deso + bkb she is unstoppable unless you have bkb piercing spells. Blurs active component is a very broken spell on phantom assassin. They need to change this spell to either invis or have the spell instantly dispel when an enemy is in range. Then buff the ultimates crit damage at early levels. making her more useful midgame.


                        PA is only good if he gets a very very very good start (10 min bf for example). otherwise there's many ways to destroy the PA..


                          They're fun to play, they're not strong. Know the difference mister crusader sir.


                            I feel like playing against SF is just a race against the clock, as soon arcane blink / abyssal / bkb is done he will just blow up your core no matter what (and with refresher 2 cores) and you lose. The scaling of this hero is just weird af and usually he won't reach his timings on high brackets.

                            aikyu3 SuBi ♪

                              KawaiiSocks you savage monster lol.
                              We should all definitely listen to opinions from a 48% win rate SF Crusader player!


                                @KawaiiSocks In my honest oppinion u kinda hit some of the marks but u still got some things wrong. For example jugg is one of the biggest lane counters to mars and even if ur kinda bad u CAN on top of it survive the lane . As for hard to hit spear , thats why people get euls for it and im not 100% sure but i think u cant even bkb out of marses euls spear combo (if done well). Mars beeing useless vs bkb is his balancing featuer , same as his lower mana pool .In the end he is a good choice of an offlaner , he is strong and he can bully in the lane , but he is not an default end all be all offlane pick for everyone ( like underlord for example). Also win rate doesnt mean anything if its in range of 45%- 55% , look at es or morph for example . Not great winrate but still rly strong heroes in the right hands. As for better candidates i would put mirana in any position u want . decent support warding and a lil bit more game awareness and she is litteraly useless.

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                                  I think it works the same as Lion/Nyx stun, as in, if the Spear of Mars hitbox is on top of the hero coming down from Eul's, they don't get a chance to react and essentially return to battlefield disabled, which is an excellent counterpoint.

                                  Regrading the 45-55% win rate range, I have to disagree, though, especially for heroes who have 10%+ popularity. At this point, I think it becomes statistically significant to start at least thinking of why some heroes work and why they don't. Conclusions we end up getting to might be wrong or right in the end, but it is the thought process behind getting there what is important. That's why we encourage constructive discussions in the comment section.

                                  Also, I do apologise for my previous cheeky comment. Truth be told, and I genuinly believe it, is that every single player who has played more than ~150 games of Dota, regradless of their skill bracket or their rating, knows something about Dota I don't, simply because the game we love is really fucking complex. Let's try to be nice to each other)

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                                  One Fourth of a Concubine

                                    I think mars is just the "reliable offlaner" atm and gets picked a bit too much. You're not really gonna complain if someone picks mars as it gives almost everything you want from a 3, apart from being a bit of a weak aura builder.

                                    Brünk Hüll

                                      @Devastator @kawaiisocks

                                      I usually point to the Io dichotomy, but prrrrrobably Broodmother is a better example. I think it's hard to switch the brain over from looking at a 'crap' hero to looking at them as 'situational'. Mars, however, is built from the ground up to be able to fit into more lineups, which only serves to make that switch over in mentality even harder. I think that's the point that the two of you are on opposite edges of.

                                      As an aside, a couple of heroes that have, from time to time, gone from 'situational' to 'OP' but usually aren't viewed as 'crap' (at least from my judgement of the community collective viewpoint): Drow, Lycan, Lich, Doom, Pugna, Silencer. I think the difference with these heroes is that they are far more 'one note' and they slide into OP when that note is too strong. Rarely have these heroes felt plain or reliable or flexible.


                                        @KawaiiSocks i respect that , but i belive that anyone that wants to play mars and be decent with him , will be rewarded for it . I have 56% wr on him and i picked him into
                                        the weakest matchups he has , like wks ,monkyes , ursas , and the most cancer ones jugger and maiden/wd . He has weakneses , he has strenghts , but imo i think he is picked a lot by all kinds of players and thats why his winrate kinda tanks for him. Picked way too oftet ? yes . Overrated ? i would say no . Anyone that played more than 20 games with mars . knows how squishy he rly is and how limited his builld can be .


                                          @Quartermistress i agree , people kinda see him now as they used to see axe/tide/brew.. in the old days . U gotta play off ? u dont know what to pick ? Go axe/tide/brew ....

                                          @Brünk Hüll True . He has a good kit for offlane and can deal with a lot of physical dmg , problem starts when there is a magic dmg in the mix . Thats probbably what kills this hero the most . I would like to call that a bristle sindrome. U think ur tanky cuz u have ur bulwark but u die in a span of sec if opponents have magic dmg in the mix .


                                            @Devastator but doesnt picked to often exactly mean overrated?


                                              Fuck PA. She’s strong, but a bit over-picked even when other heroes are better in the line-up. She requires a decent amount of farm to be effective.

                                              100% agree on Mars. There was a time where he was in every two/three games I play, and his performance was mediocre. Now, it’s much rarer to see him in pubs.

                                              SF has been not good for a while now due to the meta favoring hyper-active mids. SF is too slow to gank people effectively. He can take towers but that requires concerted effort which, early on, might not happen.

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                                                @Devastator - completely agree with your last comment and personal proficiency with a hero can definitely make up for being off-trend or not a good meta fit. I mean, I am (was) a Dazzle support spammer and that hero/role combination and even that hero in vaccuum haven't been good for what feels like an eternity.

                                                As I wrote: "Mars can be a dominant force in the game even in his current state. It just requires specific games against specific heroes, who are not being picked too often right now." The low win rate is not because the hero is weak, it is because he is the default pick in way too many games and if both teams just pick default meta heroes, Mars is at a disadvantage. Hence overrated, in a very different flavor from Phantom Assassin, but still overrated.

                                                Not "community thinks the hero is strong, while they are actually pretty weak right now" like PA, but "community defaults to the hero thinking it is reliable, while it isn't the case in the majority of games, because trends and fashion in pubs don't support it."

                                                I am not disputing that in the right hands the hero can have 50%+ win rate or that he can't be the best pick in the right game. I am just proposing that he shouldn't be picked in 20% of games in the highest level brackets. Basically, if you are not a hardcore Mars spammer who knows all their matchups and how to behave in them, you are better off defaulting to something like Beastmaster/Tidehunter.


                                                  really? sven is weaker than pa , instead of pa you should mention sven


                                                    @Estheghlal, how is Sven overrated with 0,62% pickrate in the divine bracket? Did you even read the article?


                                                      @KawaiiSocks Cant be more true than that .


                                                        @Strygwyr overrated means people think they are way better than they actualy are , could stem from them not knowing the matchup and losing to that same hero so when they get to play the offlane they will pick mars (for example ) even in the worst of the situations . Like getting picked too often isnt equal to beeing overrated , hero could be fun to play and have a high pick rate cuz of that . Even taking this into account those 2 things arent equal but they usualy follow each other.

                                                        Brünk Hüll


                                                          I mean, he is Bristlefront after all. Not too surprising that people make the same mistakes with both heroes.

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                                                              Wow. These guys seemed like they become the einsteins of dota regarding their disagreement on this article. Read the article first.


                                                                But mars is one of the most fun offlaners to play

                                                                Grand & Glorious

                                                                  As a Mars spammer, myself. I have no comment, can't really argue or object with it, not because i have no argument, more like i want to see the next update.

                                                                  ZAEK NARKOMAN

                                                                    Not that I disagree but its too much.

                                                                    DotaBuff win rate percentages are just as legit as dota is out of beta. There are tons of players with private profiles out there, so we get a sample of a some portion of the player base.

                                                                    As for the heroes, it feels like the one who writes the post knows the heroes to perfection, just as much as I know quantum physics.

                                                                    SF is, if not the easiest to execute mid lane hero with strong scaling, Mars has one of the best ultimates in the game that doesn't even require items to destroy fights.

                                                                    Again, it has piece of truth, but again it focuses on things that do not define whether the hero is overrated or not. There are people who know nothing but dotabuff win-rate.