General DiscussionDota 2 begining the transition to big time sports

But as there are no other in game resources, it is harder to make jokes about the prize pool being in "Wood" or "Minerals". :(

Saying that it is the first esport with potential is controversial. I would say it is the most contemporary esport with the highest potential, but definitely not first.

I hope Valve gets their shit together, and improves DotaTV more (make it actually usable in some cases). It would also be nice if there was more potential interaction between live games and the spectators.

The game really is picking up, exciting times for Dota fans!
I also feel as excited as we are about Dota we should not put down other games' potential to be a serious e-sport.

The large prize pools are great, and will create a more competitive atmosphere for top tier teams. Apart from these show case tournaments it's good to see many smaller tournaments all around the world, which will help new and smaller teams come through. The pro scene will become stale and boring without new blood.

I'm sure it is controversial since everyone has their favorites...but it really is the first. Everything before it was missing one or more of the essential elements for success on a grand scale...not the least of which is the global environment that makes it easy for billions of people to have internet access.

While these prize pools are enormous compared to last year, next year they will be common...and in the coming years they will be regarded as too small for a major tournament. The audience for dota 2...provided Valve manages it properly has the potential to grow over time to eclipse all other sporting industries. This is because of something unique to esports. The performers have potential to work for decades like musicians or actors, continuing to hone their craft and grow their fan base. In all other sports the performers careers are short because of physical limitations. But if they don't quit for some personal reason a player like Dendi or Loda could easily still be in major dota tournaments 30 years from now.

While people who played physical sports when they were young still enjoy watching them in their old age and often introduce their children to their favorite sports...with dota, an older person can even continue to participate...in fact with years of experience will be better at the game when 40 then they were at 20. This can become a global entertainment phenomena like that world has never seen before. Because of the infinite strategic depth of the game, I know it will still be something I want to do decades from now...just a with old fans of other major sports, but with dota I will still be able to play.

In ten years, thing that Valve took 3 years to fix will not be remembered or relevant. One way or another they will be worked out because there is so much momentum.

RIP dota 2

Dota 3 global sport confirmed.

But seriously, while I expect great things of Dota2, I don't think you will see 40+ year old pro dota players. I will happily eat my words if proven wrong, but if any other esport is to be compared... reflexes and health deterioration seems to force most to retire. Not to mention that it would take some serious determination to stick with it for that long.

While it is possible to play dota more strategically, the younger generations would have the advantage with better reflexes.

agree fucked up joints wont let us see pros in their 40s

I really don't think it is the first, you're almost completely ignoring how many people both regularly watch League of Legends and the amount of viewership that is drawn for their seasonal championships. Im not saying Dota2 isn't big and has big prizes either but League does as well. Not to mention the reason that Pro Gamers can get VISAS now was because League petitioned for their "athletes" to be deemed as professional athletes not Dota. League also has a team that is given a regular TV show that broadcasts on Gamespot (affliliated with CBS). I think that's why many would call you saying its the first controversial.

League's championship is also taking place in the Staple Centre in Los Angeles. League's system is also much more accessible for non-pros to be picked up because of yolo queue.

I play both games, don't murder me Dota players.

^ there is nothing to compare dota 2 is dead

doto not ded, just hibernating until ChrisC (bot guy) our saviour comes back. he was the only person actually doing anything. ^_^

40 yo pro players LMAO

I've been playing dota since 2004-2005 (back when Guinsoo was the developer) I think I was around 19 yo at the time. Couple years later I think I reached my plateau skill-wise (TDA Clan games)

now I'm 28 and 16 yo kids like Arteezy are dominating the scene... when I play scrims or IHLs, it becomes pretty obvious that now I'm too old, slow and dumb to compete with them, they just have faster decision making and reflexes

Everyone knows LoL is dramatically easier than dota 2. The higher skill level game will dominate the pro scene and command the audience and the advertising dollars in the long term. The only real possibility is that HoN would be an alternative. Adults will not continue to play LoL...but they will continue to play and follow dota 2.

http://dotabuff.com/players/87177591
Acc.L you are not slower now than 6 or 7 years ago. You were slow then and you still are. Fear is about as old you. He was much faster than you 7 years ago and he still is...and still will be in 10 years and 20 years. Those pros have always had faster decision making and reflexes. These things do not significantly decrease until you are more like 60....and even then its only the averages changing because more people have acquired diabetes related nerve deterioration. It is large muscles, bones, tendons, cartilage, collagen and ligaments that struggle to keep up with the constant heavy use of an athlete...not fingers and fine motor control. Professional musicians are nearly always better at 40 than they were at 20....that is the pattern you want to consider to understand what will happen.

I used to play CSS (counterstrike), and it is really cool to see video games reach this level relative to that game. There used to be small LAN tournaments in that game with prize pots of about 10k maximum but nearly always 5k and below. The acme in its money was the CGS, an attempt to show competitive gaming on TV. Each member got a 40k salary, and the finals had quite a big pot (like 100k if I remembe correctly). That died quite fast, though. CS 1.6 was similar in its LAN atmosphere.

There were a few online tournaments (CEVO, ESEA) that worked on seasons, you'd play like a month of games (12 games) with tons of teams to get a seed in the playoffs. Winning the playoffs resulted in a prize. Amateur/open/entry level competition (100s of teams) had a 1st place prize of about $1000 and chances to progress to "main". Medium level competition (main, 20 teams or so) had about $2k or $3k. Professional play (10 teams or so, the best in the world, think Dendi etc. E.g. google n0thing cs) had a first place of $10k.

And all of these prizes were weakened when you figured in that each team had 5 players... 10k becomes 2k a person after a month of VERY hard work. Travelling to a LAN to get $1k a piece, well damn, that barely pays (if it even does) for transportation. People would go to LANs more for fun/proving their skill more than the money. Often times, only locals would go.

Contrast this with DotA. It's wild.

Wow, that was harsh Relentless. *_*

@Vandal, it's a brave new world. I heard recently that it was either China or Korea that had a dota TV channel... apparently. That is almost Starcraft level of hype.

China has had dota on TV for a long time. They only recently have been putting it online as well....although really this distinction is quickly becoming moot since TV's can go online and nearly all TV is available online as well.

As Vandal points out other games have attempted to use a large scale entertainment business model. But they did not succeed because they did not have the right elements, as dota 2 does, to attract the massive audiences required to make the advertising pay for itself.

TI3 just added an extra $1 million to the prize pool from ticket sales to see it...that is the difference. Millions of fans are willing to pay to see dota 2 professionals play just like with other big time sports.

-----------------------------------------
I'm not trying to be harsh. Its just a reality that is important to recognize...everyone cannot be a professional player despite years of experience. Most people are simply too slow...nearly everyone is too slow. RTZ is not fast because he is young. He is fast because he is naturally talented. He will be a significantly better dota 2 player when he is 30 than he is now as he gains professional team experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGl8ocDWggM
Does this guy look like a teenager? No, he is "old" but his reflexes are still the fastest in the world.
Many old magicians are still lightening fast at 50 and 60 also. I'm just trying to explain reality. I'm sorry if it seemed like an insult.

I often try to explain why this person can be a pro player with the right practice...and this other person cannot...and it might be hard to accept for the countless millions of players who really never will be able to be a pro dota player.
Many if you watch this video you can appreciate a bit better the truth that for some people clicking quickly and accurately to lasthit or cast or juke is very easy...and for most no amount of practice will get them close to adequate for pro level play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uASngEbeamc

reality is u can't be playing dota when your 50 and 60.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXDo8zxeShg
^^^^
This is reality...and you think a 50 is to old for a PC game? lol

^ 50 old random guy isnt 2old but 50year old professional that played for 20years for sure is mainly due to arthrosis and pain related with it none sane is going to do shit that brings him pain on regular basis unles there would be some srs money for grabs but then sanity goes out through the window

The oldest NBA player was 46 and the oldest NFL player 44...these are contact sports...50 will be nothing for PC gaming.

how many of them spend 12h a day on court :ASD ( like chinese doter)

Well yeah it's rare for a contact sport...that stuff uses up your body. But sitting in a chair clicking a mouse for 4 decades is really not going to be a problem if you use ergonomic equipment and don't overkill it. You still have to watch for repetitive motion injury and yips...but this is not from age it is from over practice without enough rest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips

Spending 12 hours a day at any task is a mistake at any age.

I wonder why this stuff seems to take much longer to catch on in the us than other countries? I'm personally not interested in watching dota as an e-sport at all.

I think really it has not taken dota 2 longer to catch on in the US as an esport. It has not been viable to have US dota pro teams for more than a couple years. In fact really this year is the first year anyone in the US could seriously claim that playing dota 2 was a legitimate source of income. Before this year, dota was really only played as a hobby for all US players but the 15 people on Dignitas, EG, and Liquid.

In most countries winning a $10k prize a splitting it 5 ways is a serious amount of money...in the US it is not. Because it was not possible to play dota as a full time job and still eat or have any definite long term prospects few people took the game seriously, few watch, few advertisers...no hype no audience.

But this year we have gone from no dota 2 tournaments in the US to plenty every month, from no prize money to win in the US to $300k by the end of the year and accelerating. US pro teams have expanded from about 5 last year to close to 20 this year. Now there is something to watch.

Somebody should tell that relentless to have some life.Go to ibiza or other some nice places,you will see that dota is just a game :D

I don't know what's the point of people saying "but there won't be any pro players of age 40+..." yea because soccer has many, right? american football? basketball? tennis? even chess players tend to retire when they age.

I have already climbed mountains and floated in zero-g, flown planes, studied over half of everything there is to study, raced cars, swam, skied, shot sniper rifles, built bombs, engines and lasers, designed and built my own inventions, kayaked and explored...cleared forest land, built roads and houses and seen the world...toured with a professional musical group, been to fancy expensive parties and lived in a mansion and been dirt poor...I've done 2 dozen different kinds of jobs you will probably never do.

I'm sorry you can't get the level of enjoyment I do out of watching and playing dota 2...go live your life if you don't like it. Mine is just fine. I don't need to get another one. Climbing up a waterfall or a bridge is a lot of fun. I'm glad I got to do those things, but they are also dangerous and very hard work. Dota 2 is just as fun, much safer, easier and more convenient especially for an old person like me.

Wow bro,so many things you've done and still playing dota.It sounds stupid for me but if you enjoy it,so be it :)

Everyone likes different things. Many of things I enjoy best I know other people find extremely boring or even incomprehensible. As for dota 2, it is the best real time strategy game I have ever played. I have always had a passion for strategy games. In fact some my earliest memories are designing and playing strategy games with pencil and paper when I was 4 years old. I filled a filling cabinet to the point the drawers were hard to close with paper from all the games I made when i was a kid. I never get tired of them.

"Go get a life."

- Envious nerd.

I love playing dota2, I just don't really like watching it. Or I should say I don't like watching it nearly as much as watching other "non-e" sports or doing other stuff with my free time. That's the rub, I just don't know anyone in the US who likes watching e-sports, but maybe I don't know enough gamers. Probably colleges filled with them.

Relentless bro you use sound logic when you reason, you don't even argue, you debate.

Much love.

#Nohomo, #jkfullhomo

whats the difference between arguing and debating? -_-

I can imagine that, retirement, do nothing, just playing Dota all day,
oh wait..

How much do you earn relentless?

I used to make a lot of money, but currently nothing. In fact I'm about out of money again so I will have to go back to working for pay instead of doing dota related things for free.

Debating:
Is more formal, generally more factual, and used to persuade or change the view point of a person/group.

Arguing:
Is less factual, informal, Not always concerned with the factual correctness, and can be about things both parties are aware of, thus no opposing viewpoints, e.g. a row between a man and wife who have cheated on each other, would not be a debate, as they are both aware and agree that adultery took place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

ahh i see thank you very much

would you mind if i ask you what do you do as a profession relentless?

As I said, nothing. I have been just playing dota and tinkering around with various things in my basement for the last couple years. I have done a lot of different things but I get bored with them easily and have to keep changing.

Remember when SC2 was going to be the esport that would rival actual sports?

how do you earn so much then lol. no homo but I'm quite intrigue with how you live your life considering you said you were kinda old and still manage to dota lol

I remember that some people thought that...but I never did. SC2 is like tennis. The only people who want to see it are those who have some personal connection to the game. SC2, like tennis can over a very long period of time become a moderately successful esport enjoyed by a small minority of loyal fans...if SC2 stays around in some form long enough for that to happen.

But because it is a 1v1 game its just not that interesting to most people. All that micro work, to those who are not personally really into SC2 looks about as fun to see as bunch of ants fighting on the sidewalk. Someone might stop to look, but they are not going to pay to see ant wars even if there is someone excited commentating.

Dota 2 has the same elements as the games people really love to watch: the team games. The team elements of the game and the spectacle of it are what make those who know little about it enjoy it without really grasping the strategy and tactics. Beyond that, think about the crowd reactions to picks at the International. People want to see their favorite heroes and new things. Dota 2 offers so many possibilities...a totally different thing to see next game even if you just watched 20 games of it.