General DiscussionBatrider recommendations

1) Strong pretty much against everyone, he just has to be the initiator. Weak against pretty much only Nyx, constant Mana burn and spiked carapace in firefly hurts.
2) Yes, a 4.5 Second disable? That goes through bkb.
3) Offlane and Jungle, no more mid since base damage nerf.
4) Blink rush is CORE, into a forcestaff. Then after that Bkb's, travel, Hex, shivas, MoM.

1)strong against everyone, WEak against bloodcyka and .... the fucking disruptor, i really hate that guy
2)yes ,good initiator
3)offlane ,jungle ,support in the 3lane
4)blink->force->linken or bkb . eul is a good option.

i am not an expert but i was playing br the last 2 weeks

Go offlane, Cannot farm? Rotate at 2:20, come to your big camp jungle. Go stack, minute 8 blink dagger. And every 90 seconds your team get a killl (lasso cd) its because of your contribution.

@what a disaster
the base damage nerf merely prevents him from denying, not last hitting, so he isn't as dominant in lane anymore. he has to use napalm one extra time every creep wave to achieve the same last hitting power as the previous patch, so more magic stick charges and more mana used. he can still be played mid in pubs, just isn't in competitive (same with puck).

1.
strong against
• split pushers due to his long initiation range, prophet, tinker, AM, weaver (kinda)
• people who are squishy without their abilities / items, again like the 4 above, + clinkz if he can't dark pact + BKB, alchemist if he doesn't use chemical rage in time, etc
• lifestealer - relies on rage + armlet toggling to block most damage, lasso him then use all your magic damage on him before he can rage / armlet toggle
• juggernaut - is weak stat-wise, and lasso goes through his spin, but it might set up an omnislash unless he's already used it, or you can kill him in 3 seconds
• templar assassin (in lane) - each stack of napalm counts as 1 instance of damage for breaking refraction charges, so 1 attack with 3 napalm stacks = 4 counts of damage, firefly is also good at breaking refraction so meld is useless, and I think flamebreak's knockback can cancel meld

weak against
• abaddon since he can aphotic shield off the lasso, and if you lasso the abaddon so he cant use shield, his ult will just pop anyways.
• venge can swap bat or the lassoed target and instantly break the lasso
• disruptor can glimpse and break the lasso too
• I think kunkka can also break lasso with a quick double X marks the spot on batrider, or at least use it on his lassoed teammate.
• slark can break the lasso with dark pact, or if he manages to somehow live through lasso, he can use his ulti
• morphling commonly picks up linkens sphere and bat only has 1 targetted ability without items, can waveform out as soon as lasso ends, plus he can morph strength while lassoed
• if nyx carapace's and you pull him into firefly or he walks into it, you lose a large amount of drag time

2. yes. very few heroes have repositioning abiltiies. bat is good at defending / breaking high ground because he can simply drag people with firefly over the 'walls' of the base. also disables that go through BKB are always good late game.

3. anywhere. if people still do trilanes vs trilanes he can 1v1 the enemy offlaner just fine, plus benefits from the farm due to the importance of blink dagger on him.

4. item build is always blink as your first big item
• boots can just be brown boots
• the advised treads on the valve build are shit - bat doesn't need attack speed, the tread swapping isn't very useful on him, and treads don't give any more MS over browns
• phase are kind of expensive since you won't be attacking often and firefly gives you the unit walking of phase anyways. tranqs ms are similar to phase's active and cheaper
• tranquils are good because they give the 2nd highest MS (and constant unlike phase) and you'll be roaming the map often so the HP regen helps
• arcanes can help the team I guess, don't get them if you just want mana for yourself though.
• travels should only be gotten after blink + force, but are still just a luxury item, so that means don't always get them after blink + force.

bottle can be gotten even offlane or jungle, just bottle crow.
• get it in the offlane to stay in the lane and harass with napalm, and check the rune, although bat has low daytime vision so he can't see bottom rune in radiant jungle as dire offlane.
• jungle so you don't miss any stacks because you had to go to base to heal.
• bottle is a must in the mid lane. since you can dominate the lane so hard, you'll have no problem securing runes by yourself. haste and invis runes are the best on bat.

• mask of madness is a situational item, gives the best MS of any item available to batrider besides straight travels on a bat with no boots, so more drag distance, but makes you very weak to counter-initiation. idea behind it is that you drag one person so fast the enemy can't react in time.

if you want pure speed, get mom not travels
boots + mom, 450 + 1900 = 2350g
travels = 2450g

bat + boots = 340 ms
bat + boots + mom = 340 ms x 1.3 = 442, mom gives you 102 ms more than boots
bat + travels = 390 ms, travels add 50 ms more than boots.

• bkb stops most stuns + nukes, so your initiation is almost guaranteed, unless they use big ults on you. linkens does a similar thing but it only works for one spell. it's good when combined with a BKB, so that when you're BKBed, the only thing that goes through are big ults, which linkens will block anyways. or you can use linkens on teammates too.

imo bkb > linkens if you can only choose one

• euls gives a bit of MS, and also some extra utility with the cyclone. if the item only gave one of these effect it'd be pretty shitty since there's cheaper items that give better MS, and better utility items on bat than cyclone (force / bkb), but since it gives both, it's an okay pickup in some situations.

• scythe of vyse - more disable, 'nuff said

• shivas - more armour, bat's str gain is decent at 2.something, his agi gain is horrible though, therefore his armour is. also the aoe slow follows you when you blink, so you can slow your enemies while you're dragging one of them away.

5.
pros
• good lane dominance
• can get solo kills in lanes
• good against rat dota
• versatile in lane choice
• can head into the jungle if shut down in lane (mainly offlane), and farms pretty well
• long initiation range
• good at gaining map control with a gem

cons
• has no damage vs magic immunity
• has no damage late game
• low daytime vision range of 1200, while most heroes have 1800

^

plus clock... idk i use to clock vs bat all the time
i liked baitin out his firefly when he's stackin napalms for wand charges then cogging anytime he gets close

though after he gets bkb/force/blink then it's not so much fun :c

long initiation range ????

bat has basically dagger + 50(100?) range of initiation, even shaker has longer one without using fissure.

If you write long range initiation, that's beast (with dagger ofc), puck, tornado voker, titan, clock ....

so bat's initiation is shorter than other long range initiators. then by that logic, every hero in the game is shit at initiation compared to clock / invoker who have ~3k initiation range.

bat's initiation range isn't the highest by any means, but it still high. not to mention range isn't the end-all-be-all. strength of the disable matters, and batrider's up there with enigma who also only has blink to boost his range.

you can initiate with a 2600 range fissure but that doesn't force the enemy into a bad position since your team probably isn't going to get in range by the time fissure's stun wears off, a max range hookshot most likely is going to turn into a 1v5 vs the clockwerk

thank you for the support guys!. I played batrider for the first time while in a 5 stack party in all pick ranked. My stats weren't all that great but I now know how important batrider's role is in a 5 man dota game. Not only he fills up nice in offlane but he is such a nice initiator. Although i realized that having batrider is only going to work if your team has enough lock downs and nukes to bring down the enemy hero.

^
also force > blink

100% initiate in OR 100% initiate out

whereas blink is

100% initiate OR DIE cuz poor bat can't get his scrawny ass movin fast enough

EDIT: obviously get both, i just think the staff is better earlier on, especially if you don't get your blink fast enough/keep dying before u can buy it, etc

i would have bats with only brown boots/blink/bottle, they blink in, ulti, die.

which is where bat calls for centaur's help

Would you agree he has a pretty high skill cap? I find him difficult to play and don't see many pubs doing well on him. Personally I stay away and prefer he's not on my teams.

I don't think he has a high skill cap.. because my most played hero was invoker, and in my opinion. all batrider needs to do is just initiate. And i think that's when using your shift comes in handy. Like yeah, in my first game, I couldn't initiate very well, but the story dramatically changes when batrider gets a blink dagger.

no
i think he was considered "high skill" by a lot of "newbs" back like a year ago when bat started getting some more play time by "pros"
people thought napalm was a shit spell and that maxing flamebreak was the "go-to" build

then when they got wrecked face by napalm and firefly and their opinion changed entirely

but he's relatively er... "mid-tier" skill level? low base dmg = hard last hitting or using napalms on creeps to make it easier
i've also seen some better bats take note of a hero's "turn animation and attack animation" using it to their advantage, by rotating or circulating around someone who decides to attack instead of run. it's quite funny actually, just picture a turtle vs a hare
basically it prevents them from getting an attack off

i guess firstcomers on batrider would overextend and overestimate their dmg output, and not be aware of things like:
- how much time you have left before your napalm stacks wear off
- does the mother fking hero have a mother fking wand? if so, stop spamming ur shit needlessly
^ this one is something that should be common knowledge but isnt

i generally let a bat get 1-3 stacks, perhaps even 4 dependin on the hero i'm playing and if i think i can just keep baiting out free charges for myself
i'l never take the risk of going for a LH while i have too many stacks of napalm, its happened way too many times in my life .__.

I like Tranquils --> Blink Dagger --> Force Staff --> BKB --> Luxuries

Everyone I'm matched with thinks building vanguard is a brilliant idea for some reason...

Vangaurd Bat might be a relic of -APEM tower dives.