Hey why not my LC havoc ??? why you do dis to mehh
Also... i once thought i can only support and support :<
do you really think this will be helpful? the amount of 2-3k players that actually want to increase their skill level are few and far between. Its not fun forcing yourself out of 2-3k mmr, you have to do everything from farming to supporting yourself while ignoring flame and people reporting you/ griefing you. I think the system is just flawed right now (not ranked matchmaking specifically) and you just have to play. More hats less fun.
I've had games were I played lycan and never fought a single teamfight cause the enemy never had tp scrolls in low 3k and the whole entire time they were literally insulting my race, religion (don't have one), education, perception, dunning-kruger effect (of course, such a dota fad), morals, philosophy and so on that of which they assumed on. I kid you not they went that deep. They even went to my steam profile, went to my youtube, saw my audio projects. Insulted my music, found out what school I went to, looked up my email, and tried to find my phone number through my website to harass me about not teamfighting.
I won the game for them and didn't say a word. But this took 2 and a half years of learning. attitude and morale is something people wont grasp on a day to day basis. Practice makes perfect, reset the stats. Fuck all of you, lets get on with life. GG go next.
Thanks Havoc, I am going too send this link to some of the people I play with <2000. And I am tired of explaining these same things to them over and over, maybe if they see it written then they will start to believe me :).
@Hatsune The hero choices are the general heroes I see commonly failing in games. While I respect you're a decent Legion player the majority out there aren't and won't get the initiation and will just end up farming damage items and shadow blade. I see legion as a durable disabler, one that is able to fight toe-to-toe with carries later and lock out key heroes from having their way with your team.
@MID OR FEED I am assuming you're speaking for yourself here? Nothing worth getting is ever all that easy and most things require work and thought. The system is far from flawed and I don't feel there is anything inherently wrong with Dota2 as a whole. I have been faced with frustration and failure in this game, I face it with determination to improve, others face it with making new smurfs and QQ posts on forums. To each his own.
@Axe No problemo, glad to see your meepo winrate is improving.
I'm at 3.2k in a slightly higher weighted server (China) but most of this should still apply.
You act like there the concept of an offlane exists. About 1 in 15 games have solo offlanes either due to trilane (0.2 in 15) or jungle (0.8 in 15).
Why avoid heroes that are micro intensive? A good Enchantress or Chen absolutely wrecks shit in low level games providing your offlaner doesn't feed because you both get farm and unlike in pro games they a. don't bother warding your jungle, and b. don't view you as a "missing".
Also, asking supports to not let the offlane into your lane is unreasonable. About a fifth of the games I am safelane support, I'm against a solo offlane I zone them out and tell the carry to maintain lane equilibrium… 1 in 4 games out of those games they do. And the other four fifths I'm not against a zone-able offlane because they're not a single offlaner. And no, telling the other dual lane from the top or the Doom jungling doesn't work. In that case you just pull and hope the enemy isn't smart enough to come and drag your creeps away because they totally can because your offlane is also a dual lane.
My advice? Play OP pub heroes. I find that a large portion of lost games where I played fairly well, that I could have won much more easily by not picking a shitty hero like Windranger (even though I hit more than half of my shackles). That means you go to the Dotabuff heroes list and find the ones with the higher winrates.
Appreciate the effort but from an authentic mid-tier player who is there due to mechanical skills and unreliable gameplay and not lack of knowledge, this isn't very accurate.
Usually I tell my team in advance I'm getting an offlaner and that someone should pick a jungler or trilane. Usually it's a jungler because it's ez gold when nobody ganks jungle.
@ Havoc burger but this could apply to life, you are put down because of the ills of this game but you pick yourself back up and remain trying to do what you need to do to improve.
This is a stretch but bare with me
However think of drunk driving. If your mom died in a car accident because of a drunk driver, do you remain the same trying to move on or do you dwell on It trying to remove drinking and driving or ban the selling of alcohol to people without their car keys on them or something similar to that. Most people do standup QQ and fight for their right even though it will hardly do anything. Some people will just accept it and move on and mourn in silence. but you see, going against the whole distribution of alcohol and the miss happenings of drunk driving is something you cant change. Its inevitable and its indoctrinated into the system. Its like feminists getting made that they teach "How to not get raped" Rather than "not raping", but they refuse to understand that humans are humans and you can't stop something that is part of human nature and has manifested into some people regardless of moral stance.
But Dota is not something that is that much larger than life, that's why the system is flawed. We are here everyday on this forum complaining, asking, begging for reasons or advise in different scenarios because we are thrown to the wolves and we are suffocating from this very poorly put together toxic dota community. Making an automated mute and low priority system is not the first thing you add to keep order. There is obviously some ignorance going on here involving the psychology of game community. I would usually just tell people to not worry about solo mmr and just play to poke around unless you are already knowledgeable in the game and at least a 4k-4300 rating. But I'd tell them to just play, not lose their cool, ask better players to point out things or even use the coaching feature. You cant tell people to fight against human nature of how they're going to act cause it will just cause anger when you cant control the situation. I wish they didn't add the rating and I wish that people didn't care. But we have fruitcakes on this forum that only care about rating, bracket, winrate etc. It puts a burden on people to look at themselves negatively. The people who flame people with their statistics would be the first to tell people to calm down and not tilt in the game cause it causes bad vibes and bad games. A walking contradiction monster from dota.
One of the things that i find hard about dota is how to help someone to get better, its pretty hard.
@Yiran "A good Enchantress or Chen" These rarely exist in the bracket I am referring to and if they do they're few and far between. Visage is one of the most impact bearing heroes in the support role but I do not encourage people to play him if they lack the basic motor skills to effectively play among the easiest of heroes. Its not that these heroes are impossible to learn well or even do well when played badly but if you're going to beat around in the jungle as chen or enchantress farming and using spells/attacking only when you feel it's viable then you may as well pick a hero you know you can have impact with like lina or lion.
"asking supports to not let the offlane into your lane is unreasonable" You shouldn't even have to ask, it's not at all unreasonable and this is something that myself and a number of other people I know do effectively. The offlane will get farm, and will get experience as good ones will but you can limit this by zoning them out as dual supports with stuns or simply harrassing them enough to force consumbales and a trip back to town which grants your carry uncontested farm and an opening to move on the mid hero or other lanes.
I agree that playing OP heroes is probably the way to go but even these can fail because the some of the more impressively imbalanced heroes require a decent amount of game sense to play effectively. Again, this is cover 90% of what I see watching people I coach so equally is "accurate" or applicable to the range of people this appeals to.
@Dacheat That is probably ideal, if you have a position that you're competent and know you can play effectively it is probably in your best interest to take it. This obviously excludes mid or carry which everyone seems to want to do.
@MID OR FEED
That post was so obscure and odd I am unsure as to the point you're trying to make. Please keep things on topic and simplicity is key when trying to make a point.
@Dorkly The key to getting better is to accept if told you're not good by someone better and if given advice take it to heart. Relearn heroes if you have to as sometimes your lack of success in the heroes you play might be based on the way you play them and not really the hero itself needing a buff etc.
But the point I was trying to make was so anti Black&White, I didn't know how else to describe it.
What you're doing is basically complaining. Rating or not people will want to improve their gameplay, some people aren't content with inadequacy. The purpose of this post is not to give people free rating or get them an amazing win rate, but to help improve their perspective of how the game should be played and to provide some insight in how they can start on the road to improvement which in the long run will get them wins and an improved rating.
i think some of the stuff you posted applies to 4k shitters as well
(i'm a hybrid - solo 4k party 5k, so yes i'm allowed to criticize them)
LMFAO havoc, like half the stuff you posted applies to 4k MMR games
"There is no reason a offlane hero should be getting tons of experience and worse than that, getting farm simply because the supports are busy stacking and pulling, ganking, or just generally being useless in some other lane."
Tell that to the some of the 4k shitter "supports" in my games as well.
"Gank the right people at the right time (set objectives and targets and make it fast and quick execution)"
Read above.
"Don't blow all your money on randomly warding, place where and when they're needed."
You know sometimes I feel like it's better if I just buy the wards myself as carry (only 150 gold) so I can place them in useful areas such as jungle entrances because half the time I play with some of these mongoloids, the map is fucking dark despite having 2 supports. The wards are either in useless areas or there are none at all. I click the shop inventory and alas, I see 2 obs wards available.
"Offlaners should not be even allowed to touch your carries farm, push them out of the lane and then stack when the lane pushes"
Funny, I just played a game 2 days ago where I was in a trilane and the offlane weaver was allowed to contest my farm for 5 minutes straight. They were just sitting behind me doing nothing (jacking off to shitty porn probably).
Reason I say this is because of my hybrid status -
About 3-4 weeks ago I played with my friend who has ~5400 party rating and we bulldozed our way through the upper 4k games and I got 5k party rating. I'm currently playing with another friend on another account, who has 5500~ solo but around 4700~ party (he plays with people who mess around a lot so his party rating isn't high) and we're literally just repeating the same process. These games are so much easier than my solo ones because I know one guy is actually going to be competent and not retarded (yes, all it takes sometimes is just 1 guy on ur team; playing 2v5 is so much easier than playing 1v5)
God bless 4k MMR games, where people still suck ass and have huge egos to make the games even more intolerable than they already are.
Now that I'm done venting...I do have some tips for 2000-3000 players.
1) Forget that you "know" anything about dota. The fact is you are nowhere near being decent. You might go 30-2 on PA in one game and think you did well (I did this all the time back in Garena pubs, a dota 1 cesspool), but it doesn't mean anything. You might go 15-5 on Pudge and lose the game and blame your teammates, but that doesn't mean anything. Change your mindset first.
2) After jettisoning what I call the "pretense of knowledge," I'd advise watching some streamers, watching page 1 games, and taking EVERY criticism along the way. Every little thing you learn helps.
About 3 years ago I'd say I was around 3000 MMR. What helped me advance was scrimming for about 3 months with some players. Back then I was the worst player among the 5 by a pretty big margin, now I'm equal to/better than 2 of them, slightly worse than 1, and moderately worse than the best player. (~5400) So yes, getting better is a long process.
Getting better is a long process, and if you're not enjoying dota for whatever reason (which SHOULD be the reason you play - you should play for fun, not to "grind MMR points"), you might as well quit. Find something better to do with your time.
Anyways my point is that 2000-3000 players should learn the game while still enjoying it, and 4000-4999 players are fucking ass.
@Yikes A lot of these are basics which should apply across all broadwalks of Dota2 but something that is practically non-existent to 2-3K players. Also as for the above in point 1) I completely agree with this and surmised that " Relearn heroes if you have to". In the same analogy I use (from experience) that a lot of people learn to play an instrument, for me it was the piano. When I went to performing arts school I said I knew a lot about piano and they flat out told me to forget everything I know. It was humiliating and even a bit frustrating to be told I was shit and had to do basics which I felt I knew so well but allowing this to happen was what in the end brought about a solid grounding in musical theory and the ability to play the piano at a much higher skill level then if I was to continue just "teaching" myself.
Similar principles helps and small things that you pick up can have a big impact in game. Note, someone who is now at like 2800 rating told me that Axe's ult instakills the courier, this was two years ago and this guy was a terrible player but I fucking learned something from him. You can always learn, always improve. It's not try harding or not playing the game for fun, any sport you play can be played for fun with you improving etc., it doesn't have to remove the fun to get better and become a chore.
I think the thing with me I a long time ago I made some lasting friendships with people who have plateau'd as far as the game is concerned. I think some people just want the the rating without doing the work, working on something will always yield results even if they're slow and over time.
@ ~Links A lot of the principles apply to your bracket as well.
@ Dorkly I know, trust me. A vast majority of people I play with are still stuck in the same gameplay style from two years ago, but what can we do, we still love 'em
Fair enough regarding micro-intensive heroes. Motor skills are a factor for most people's low MMR.
However, I still can't see you zoning out the enemy offlane. If you're solo queueing, chances are you're not gonna have a support buddy. If you're party queueing and you are good enough to know trilanes then it is more applicable but if you knew this you probably weren't in the bracket anyway. And if you're not queueing with the carry he more than likely will not keep the lane in equilibrium. If you expect them to be partying with everyone you might as well be teaching them "how to play dota" and not "how to play at 2k-3k MMR", which trilanes are a small part of.
This is what I mean by inaccurate. Your teammates are not going to be cooperative of your efforts. Of course, your enemy should be just as bad, so you should still win from better play than the enemy support, but your strategies (for support) are very often nullified by your teammates (whether by poor last hitting or bad picks and lane distribution) unless you're queueing in a party in which case it's not really relevant to those complaining about elo hell.
zoning out the offlane is done to balance the experience distribution between the offlane and the safe lane. If it is a dual lane against a dual lane you dont 'need' to zone them out because you dont have to deal with falling behind in exp. If the offlane is solo you MUST zone him out or you put your carry in a horrible position of being underleveled against a hero who most likely has a stronger early to mid game than him.(which will lead to him either losing farm playing most defensive or dying)
@Yiran Then that is beyond control, what is describe above is in peoples control. If you're playing support zone out the offlane and much as possible, try and instigate ganks, if that doesn't happen then that is beyond your control. An example of what can happen is here http://dotabuff.com/matches/682448861 where my support roamed about solo and enigma was hell bent on jungling, I was a level 2 SK vs a level 4 TB who dropped me twice and continued to harass me with illusions forcing me into the jungle giving him a free lane to farm and win the game for his team as the offlaner. All because no one cared to zone him out. The offlane, if uncontested can be as strong as your mid but with more opportunities to kill. How many times have you said/heard "how the hell does an offlane beat a tri-lane" well that is how. People need to do it right, you have to get rid of him early and continue to make his life hell otherwise you will have a really powerleveled hero who will drop your carry the moment you leave him for a second.
Lead by example, if you have obvious impact people will more often then not. Take for example http://dotabuff.com/matches/681780699 and I think you should watch the game as an example. I was 100% the support of that game, ES wanted to farm carry and WK was picked and they bitched all fucking early game. I said for them not to worry about the support and I would do it, I told WK to go into the jungle and I would roam. I jungled a bit early to grab the courier and the wards and continued to ward and buy sentries and dust to the point (I was 5-1) that the team told me to go get the blink dagger and that they would ward.
People can tell when someone is pulling their shit together and sometimes being commanding verbally rather than by example can lead to frustration. Take them gently by that hand and ask them to play along, if they refuse, do the right thing anyways in the hopes they will follow. As long as you're doing your part and playing your little role right things will go better than worse.
NoTail was 100% wrong when he tells people to go 100% retard with the game. Its not about carrying solo, its about doing enough to win your team mates over to the idea of winning and what it will take to win. It requires communication and sometimes won't work but it's always worth a try. Seriously download that Axe game and watch how fucking long it took me to sweet talk them into playing the right way. In the end i managed to convince them i was right and we won.
I believe these pointers are also valid for the lower 4k bracket. I just had a game as Brood where my teammates ABSOLUTELY REFUSED to push another lane. I lost count the number of times where a 3-man of Jugg, Pudge and CW would be hunting me at the bottom lane, only to see my team's NP farming the ancients/jungle while Puck, Rubick, and Huskar farm. God forbid the level of English in SEA is so poor that a simple term such as split push is too complicated to fathom.
@Hatsune Try doing it more calmly next time, it seems your team already knew what was up (decisive win)
@Cartograher Some of these (as previously mentioned) are usable in all skill brackets. My biggest peeve with playing in the 4k bracket is that while a lot of people are skilled, they lack common sense or the competency to execute the skill I know they have.
On brood maybe try the blink dagger, this is something I was going to start testing after the recent patch knocked out the joy of my support terrorblade.
Thanks Havoc, this is helpful. Will add u when I will be able to, so keep in a good shape for coaching :D
I think I am a very slow learner. It took me 3 years of Dota experience to just hit 4k mmr....I for some reason know what I have to do but I have problems executing them at times ranging from small to huge mistakes....I constantly make the silliest mistakes in mid lane and I hate myself for that hais
@copy sure thing, as with most people just message me when you have the time and I will finish up what I am doing and give you a session.
@ MID OR FEED Of course way more goes into this but what I wrote is a good place to start.
I'm more worried about the attitude, language barrier and morale of dota. getting someone on the same page in dota is like telling someone that they have been single all their life when they adamantly believe their imaginary friend has been their spouse for the past 40 years. FML
@MID OR FEED Then perhaps consider that you're the one in the wrong and not the person you are trying to reach out to in-game.
@Elsa Lich is again, another big impact easy to play hero that I would recommend most try.
I do agree with you that you should try zoning out the offlaner, and that you should give positive feedback. However, there are simply cases where you simply cannot zone out out the offlaner(s).
Let's see what happened in my last few games.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/678860026
Preparing to support, I was forced to go solo offlane (or we wouldn't have an offlane) and won my lane. Couldn't do much other than see bot fail.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/677289842
Bara was a solo offlaner so I zoned him out and then doublepulled. Then I fed but it didn't matter because our carries were more farmed.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/675718284
We were losing 9-2 and I didn't bother to buy wards because I knew we needed a mek more. Still won because Omniknight is OP.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/673857411
Roamed and got us winning 9-2. Then we had Legion Commander, Dragon Knight and Bloodseeker; in every teamfight there was at least one of them too afraid to go into the fray and escaped with full mana and health. Even though I got an invis rune and was standing in the middle of the enemy team, the Bloodseeker gave a Rupture and the Dragon Knight gave a breath and Legion Commander gave an Overwhelming Odds. I broke invisibility and stunned with Split Earth and proceeded to get killed because they didn't want to fight.
I can't remember much beyond this because I haven't played many games recently but there were definitely cases of Silencer and Witch Doctor offlanes and I couldn't harass them out of lane, so I called for gank but top insisted their dual lanes, so I went to pull but the two offlaners came and hooked the creeps away, and so on and so forth.
Basically, yes your advice is helpful, but more often than not it is not applicable for your title because there are rarely trilanes or solo offlanes or carries which know how to maintain lane equilibrium in this bracket.
Your game isn't in 2-3k, even though you did well. But your skill there is sweet talking and you had, at the very least, conditions which you could obtain that 5-1. (I would download it if I weren't in China. Maybe add me so I can download it through your profile?)
@Yiran
> First example not your fault and you will come across games like this (legion with vlads :P) and well...shit happens.
> Second example is the reason your team won, you did 100% what the support is supposed to do and look at how fat your carry was
> Third example was won because timber and bristle can win any team fight alone while the lycan splits, still good play by you.
> Last example is one of those situations where maybe you shouldn't have been roaming as much as with a legion, BS, and DK your team would have been more inclined to farm. This is one of the reasons I dislike DK because if he gets shut down early on he can't flash farm to catch up so he will always remain behind.
I understand that in the lower brackets these things don't happen, which is the very reason I made this post so that those who see it can start to implement some of these basics into their core play style. The "skill" and point that I was trying to demonstrate was level headed solid game play which all people should/could have if they would just take the time to occasionally analyze their game play from time to time or have someone else do it for them.
...the conditions were that I am a Axe player.
@havoc
about supports... There are position #4 supports and #5 supports... Should that ward bitch crystal maiden get 30min mekanism? Or should you get urn if you play some super defensive (jakiro/witch doctor) support?
Those items are good, but often in that pub level there only be one support. #5 no-gold-ward-bitch :(
Getting a 30 minute Mekanism on CM is a waste as mekanism has its highest impact earlier on, if you are a solo support CM then one of the utility heroes should get it. Mekanism is no longer reserved for supports.
Urn is used better on DOT heroes.
its fucking hard to have cooperation when you are solo queueing on that bracket. 2 days ago or so i played a game where the team was clearly 5 man dota with early-mid game strong heroes like drow, TA, Axe and Witch Doctor. the game started and i realized they were going to 5 man doto and i told them to not splitpush, just stick together with the team and we would be fine because our late potential was much higher (i was viper, there was a mirana, ember and a fucking void on the team, aswell as a slark). they didn't pay attention, they fed 0/10 in like 10 mins while i was easily killing drow mid
thanks to that i could farm my mekansm, aghs and maybe a sange (for halberd), which made me tanky.. we kept fighting (like me and mirana protecting and viper so he could farm a bit, slark and ember both splitpushing and dieing every single time because the other team was 5 man doto). i kept telling them to please (i wasnt bitching, actually i was very polite explaining why they shouldnt do that and what they should do instead) stick with the team
the point is that at some time i did a beyond godlike spree, but we were still losing the game. but suddenly (when they saw i was doing good) they started doing what i was saying, and we won the game. i got very tanky (about 4k hp late game), void got his shit and mirana was a decent player (ember and slark were really bad)
my point is: the only coordination you'll have on solo pubs in that tier is if you start owning
if you go like 5-0 mid and start ganking sidelanes (because, ofc, its what a mid has to do, he has to gank all the time, both sidelanes at the same time and if you don't go 90-0 in the laning phase you are a noob and the loss {that didnt happen atleast yet} is all your fault), you'll get your team to the point where they will simply do everything you say. if you say to push mid they will, if you say to jump into enemies fountain they will, because they found on you an element that can win them the game, so they will work the shit out to do what you are saying, because you are skilled
besides that, generally doesnt matter if you tell people exactly what to do (not being a dickhead), they will ignore it and also will blame you for something they don't understand yet (and you do), but thats it
im a 3k player myself, so what i've doing lately (and with good success, i'm 15/1 i think in the last games, where i started doing it) is asking nicely mid as soon as the picking phase starts, I ping on the map aswell, people usually respect that. i'm confident im atleast a little better than the players i'm put against on mid lane, so usually i win my lane and by that i get the prestige needed to tell my mates what to do.. its working so far
so for you guys out there, just stick to the heroes you are good with (generally those you have the highest win rate), do your shit fine (if you are better than you will dominate as in this shit bracket there is no coordination) and you'll get your team to follow you
seriously, there are few ways to improve in that bracket because people do shit SO WRONG, even if you make a perfect game mechanically wise you may still get pwnd because your buddies fed.
so many times when i play mid vs a terrible pudge (srsly, terrible, can't hook a shit, dunno how to last hit nor avoid harass etc), then he just goes sidelane (i obviously report the missing fattie) and still the mates feed the guy because they lack positioning so much, but that goes besides the point
i think you can only consistently get better at this game after you reach atleast 4k, where you get matched with people who have more knowledge about the game (usually), know atleast basic stuff, etc.
so thats my 2cents, its virtually impossible to really really improve at 2k rating because you'll have no space for it, try to grind mmr with heroes you are comfortable with (which will lead you to improving) and you'll progressively get better. either way you are just wasting your time because it is hard as shit to get out of that hole (no, not elo hell here, just saying that there is not room for improvement in that bracket because people is always full retarded in games, doing stupid things, building stupid things etc)
in this bracket for exemple they think leshrac is a better mid than DK, because leshrac is ranged and DK is not, so if you pick DK and intend to go mid, good news buddy you won't because you are melee lulz
the good part about it is that your opponents are also that retarded so if you are slightly better than them you may be able to capitalize on their stupidity and you'll win games. nah im not saying im better player than everyone in my bracket, but my game knowledge is a bit bigger than their, but mechanically wise im just slightly better (which is probably why im on that winstreak), if i am at all
@axe
that is what i was saying. Meka should be gotten early; and #5 supports should skip it often because they cant make it *in time* due to haaving no gold.
Urn works on heroes that can get urn charges, or damage over time heroes as you said it yourself
I really like the support part. I just played a game last night were support did exactly what you were saying, had zero purpose, ended up pulling creeps the entire game only The other team makeup was really weird and legion was solo offlane vs me on silencer and rubick. It was pretty easy for me to harass and push LC out of lane by myself and I was free farming while rubick kept pulling the creeps and keeping the lane back. So I appreciated that. But LC started getting super low and he never came over to gank him. Or he'd come over when I was oom and couldn't do anything, no cooridination at all. Then finally LC hits level 6 and went and ganked rubick in the jungle with a duel. GG has some map awareness please. In general the lane we scored probably a 6/10, got free farm, harases the off lane but we realistically should've killed him 3 or 4 time and never died.
I'd also add wraith king to the list of easy heroes. He is so easy to play, very straightforward, gets two lives, has one stun.
I also think hero choice in general makes a gigantic difference in games. Same game I discussed above, http://dotabuff.com/matches/682654783
My silencer pick wasn't very good but I picked him early cus I felt like playing him. Told last two picks, the supports, to get some disables. They pick rubick and ES. Very good heros normally but look at the other teams picks. What fuckin spells are going to be available for rubick to take? Shackleshot is their only disable, he can't steal LC's duel cus he'll die and feed if he uses it, he can maybe steal dusa's ult and sf's ult. But really, a pretty lousy pick there, someone with straight up strong disables would've been way better, like a hex on lion or ss. And ES, generally like him but his positioning requires him to be pretty up in your face on teamfights to pop ult. If he blinks in and ults vs an LC or usra he's going to get blown the fuck up, even if magnus follows up nicely. CM, shadow shaman, bane, lich I think all would've worked far better.
In general teams don't pick enough disables in this bracket either.
Advice for carries should just be, learn to last hit lol.
Sleave,
You won that game because (i) they had no late game and let it go late and (ii) your void had been farming all game. That void had 710 gpm. That feeding slark had 4.3k of TD. The opposing team had one carry with shit gpm. Not denying that you did well but looking a the dotabuff of the game I'm really surprised you think you saved the day.
75% of the time all you need to do to get cooporation and is to be polite and make sense. Sometimes fuckers won't listen and all you can do is damage control. Sometimes you suck and your team carries your sorry ass without flaming you. Sometimes you carry your peruvian friends to victory. And when you look at the replay you realise that while your were obsessed with owning midlane your offlaner harassed their carry enough that your wouldn't fall behind and your supports put down wards that netted you 3 kills and prevented a push - being consistently good helps your team win the game but unless you're 2000 mmr below your true ranking you will seldom solo carry your team to victory (especially with viper).
checkout i never said i saved the day, but at shitty tier people wont hear you unless you make something good in the game
the void got wrecked because axe and wd went offlane, by 20min he had like a midas only if i'm not wrong, if you watch the replay you'll see both slark and ember pushing lanes but not getting into the tower actually, they died before that, so they were just farming, not really splitpushing
i think the game only gone late because i was there (and im not claiming i did wonders its just the whole point on picking viper lulz having a good mid game), we were getting so wrecked, but i was tanky enough to keep my butt safe and still grab a kill on drow and skywrath.. now i remembered they had skywrath, slark was jumping on him alone and he got killed like 3 times doing this
by the time they saw me doing a godlike spree (it was not a big deal indeed, it was more due to my durable capability than killing actually) they started paying attention to what i was saying, and it happened in several games. i didnt tell about this game to show off, it was just to exemplify as doing good will most likely get your mates to do what you ask
in my tier thats pretty much how it works, you can be polite all you want but people here are usually close minded, they don't think supports should gank mid, and they think mid is a ganking machine that is put there just to gank and nothing else, so as soon as you get lvl 3 you should be constantly roaming to help out their lanes
and it all combined (5 carries team, supports stealing farm from their carries, ppl thinking that leshrac is a better mid than DK is (because leshrac is ranged and DK is melee), etc etc) makes it really degusting from someone to improve at the game, because as you said, if you are not THAT better, doesn't matter how well did you play, you may not be able to carry the game all by yourself
but cooperation here sucks, usually by lack of knowledge and execution. even if you tell people what to do, they might not do it because they don't know how to do it, and if you tell em what and how to do, they probably won't get why to do it, and by the point you explain it you are already getting pwned. cooperation here is like pinging the lane you wanna push (or smth like that) and begging for ppl to join you
Thanks havoc for posting this.
Although my MMR is improving gradually I find it close to impossible to move away from playing a support roll at this level. In 90% of games players will pick early and they'll generally pick carries and mid heroes, leaving me to be the ward bitch for the game. I generally find that if I pick a carry or mid early, no one will play support, or someone will pick a support and play it horribly; laning wrong, not warding, buying greedy items.
As a support player I think I'm competitive with any support hero in games around 3500 MMR, but if I was to play carry or offlane I'd struggle, simply because I will not get the opportunity to play this role in lower mmr games unless I want to play ina 5 carry line-up, which I dont.
Players at this level do not see beyod 2-1-2 in the laning phase. The concept of trilaning is alien to them or they dismiss it as bullshit. There is no understanding of what an offlaner actually is. They think they need a support in the lane when playing a solo offlaner or when you want to play an offlaner yourself the support follows you and wont leave, leaching your XP.
If I want to play carry that needs to be in a trilane, I wont get one and there is little hope I'll get much protection from a poor quality support in a dual lane versus dual lane situation.
So with all of this in mind, I think that the best way for me to influence the game positively and improve my mmr at this level is to play support. If not, then I'm facing a situation where if I play a cary/semi-carry role we will lose map control inside 10 minutes, its gg and completely out of my hands.
At that bracket 2k-3k I'm not sure if roles exist. I was watching someone on my friend list who is 2.6k I believe, and the top lane was a pa and ember spirit against a slardar and brood mother. For one, I doubt you have any control of a team composition in a majority of the games at that level. Secondly, even if you did, you have to assume these guys at this 2k-3k level know what they are doing which is a very very low percent chance. If you're a support, don't blow all of your money and expect your farmer to know how to carry, your mid to control the game, and your offlane not to feed. As a carry, don't expect the map to be lit up, it's not going to happen most games. Because of the way MMR is, as I (and many people) say, if you can't get out of the MMR bracket, you deserve to be there. That's not saying you can't improve your way out, but at this point, you are there because you aren't good enough. You'll win 50% with the shitheads on and off of your team.
Instead of focusing on roles and how to win as a team, I would suggest improve your own individual skill and raw mechanics of the game. Best case situation would be going mid and dominating the game. If you can't get mid, dominate the game in another way. Get your farm through jungling or safe lane or off lane or ganking. Really, you can find farm and make your impact felt one way or another in any situation. Learn how to execute and get things done. Last hit/Deny your opponent. Get a free tower if the opportunity arises. Execute an easy gank if it's obvious. If you believe you deserve to be better than your MMR, you have to be the BEST player in the game, regardless of role, position, or hero. You have to impact the game as much as possible in order to put your team in the best position to win. Sure, some games are unwinnable, but if you are the best player in every game you play, you should be winning most of the games you are in. Win your way out, or realize you deserve to be where you are and improve your gameplay to get out.
---Edit
Going to add one more note. Please don't misconceive my notion of 'being the best player' as 'you are the best player and everyone on my team should listen to me'. While what I said may translate to "ignore team, win game", that's not what I mean in the slightest. If you perform well in the early game, teammates will be more willing to work with you. Show you are the best player and team play should come with it.
KarmaBaby
Try playing CD instead of AP. What I've noticed is that while the skill set of the players in the game will not be any different, people are a lot more willing to accept whatever role has been selected for their hero. Won't be a surefire fix, but it might fix some of the problems you are having.
this /\
basically what i was saying... there is no roles, in that viper game our safe lane was ember + void... most of the time ppl just don't care about lanes (unless they're mid), i often see carries on offlane with another core hero in the lane, etc
you have to get better at mechanics and thats it, by the moment you outperform your enemies, your team will follow you
any other way is pure bullshit, 80% you'll tell them what to do and they will simply ignore
if you cant go mid (someone instapicked invoker/pudge and called for it) pick TB and jungle
most ppl at this bracket dont expect TB to jungling, so most likely they will not contest you at jungle, they might not even realize you're there (they'll be like "hmm TB is not at lane, he might be jungl... OH WAIT A LAST HIT, COOL YAYYYY!!!!)
get a yasha, BoT and keep farming, by the point you have manta and skadi (30 min or so) you are ready to pwn everyone
to learn how jungling works in TB watch matrice's games.. basically he buys a circlet, then 2 agility slippers, it will leave you with 140gold, he waits in base until he has 150 (the neutrals spawn just at 00:30), then he uses his W, get out of base and start jungling, using the illlusions to tank for him
in his bracket ppl realize that hes doing it so he gets contested and is forced to go back to base etc, but at 3k ppl just don't care so you will have free farm.
he builds 3 wraith bands, i prefer using 1 of those 3 wraith to be turned into an aquila, it will give some needed mana regen which will make you go less times to base
after that he goes for yasha and BoT
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I am constantly being messaged about advice or "please tell me what I could have done better" in odd games here and there. While I am happy to watch games and give advice and even detail what I feel you could have done better in there are some common mistakes you can avoid and things you can do which will help you win even in the lower bracket.
Most of the 2000+ MMR people I coach do accept that they're not that great at the game and this is the first step on the road to improving your game but at the same time this alone is not enough. If you can take the time to read this in full and try and implement the advice I give where possible I think you will find it will start to slowly pull you up out of the bracket your in into a much higher caliber of gaming.
[size=+30][color=Khaki]COMMON MISTAKES[/color][/size]
[color=Lightseagreen]SUPPORTS:[/color]
With a lot of the people I coach I find that supports are something that a lot of people in this bracket can actually do decently. However, I feel a lot of this comes with players lacking the confidence to carry or go mid and several will just default on supports because they feel that there is less burden or responsibility that comes with the role. This is not the case, and you need to remove this train of thought entirely if you main supports.
Supports run the early game and control and help to shape what happens in the mid-late and a lot of good support players can have a high impact late and be able to scale. With watching support heroes in replays and coaching a lot of times I feel they gank too much and too ineffectively. Watching the difference between higher skilled players and that in the low bracket is that supports will leave their lane when viable or when the opportunity presents itself. So many times I have seen supports smoking and leaving the carry solo to die to a dual offlane while trying to pull an ineffective smoke gank against the mid which more often than not usually ends them up dead.
Your carry is among the most important player you have to support and the offlane should be your killing target over the other lanes. There is no reason a offlane hero should be getting tons of experience and worse than that, getting farm simply because the supports are busy stacking and pulling, ganking, or just generally being useless in some other lane.
I have played games with supports who would take farm from me and claim "how else will I get money". This is a poor and very low-skilled mindset as the money you get comes from the successful rotations and plays you make and not so much from stacking and pulling or taking farm from your lane carry.
[color=Lightseagreen]KEY POINTS:[/color]
> Gank the right people at the right time (set objectives and targets and make it fast and quick execution)
> Don't blow all your money on randomly warding, place where and when they're needed.
> Offlaners should not be even allowed to touch your carries farm, push them out of the lane and then stack when the lane pushes
> Urn and Mekanism are important items, make sure you have them.
> Unless you're solo supporting keep as a duo, stick together and get shit done.
[color=Lightseagreen]CARRY:[/color]
I will keep this section more concise as I don't like the way people carry at all in this bracket.
> No Battlefury on every single hero you play
> Midas only where viable
> Don't afk farm for the entirety of the game
> Be proactive with your early/mid game advantages
[color=Lightseagreen]OFFLANERS:[/color]
One of the weirdest roles in this bracket as people seem to really not be good at playing it. Most will feed and end up moaning about ganks 2-3 minutes into the game. Why would you need help? I will explain in further detail about how the laning phase should go and how things should end up but your job in the offlane is to...
> Get leveled.
> Take opportunities to harrass or kill where possible
> Maintain intellegent distance so as not to feed.
> Carry a TP for another lane turn around.
> If the lane is becoming increasingly hard. ROTATE!
If played right as an offlaner you should level as fast as the mid hero playing off the mistakes they make to get in free harass and position yourself around to get experience, ping ganks, grab runes, and keep them from stacking and pulling. Picking offlaners who have a natural escape is always a better idea than randoming a Void and trying to offlane with him.
[size=+30][color=Khaki]GENERAL POINTERS[/color][/size]
I see a lot of times people are trying out fairly challenging heroes, and this is not what you should be doing. What you need to be focusing on is instead picking up heroes that have high impact in games, that require as little micro or shift skill queuing as possible. Heroes that require excessive farm also shouldn't be picked much .Heroes such as..
[color=Lightseagreen]HEROES TO PICK[/color]
> Juggernaut
> Death Prophet
> Lich
> Ancient Apparition
> Bristleback
The above is just an example but as you can see from the above you almost have the perfect balance in team. You have spell damage, damage over time, physical damage, teamfight, pushing power, healing, strong early/mid/late. None of the above heroes are particularly hard to play but can almost guarantee you a win as long as you don't mess up real bad and this boils down to how you treat your laning phase.
[color=Lightseagreen]HEROES NOT TO PICK[/color]
> Chen
> Lone Druid
> Visage
> Antimage
> Terrorblade
> Morphling
> Sniper
> Pudge
> Phantom Lancer
> Legion Commander
Avoid heroes that are micro intensive, avoid heroes that require a lot of protection early game, avoid heroes that will have you default on farming rather than fighting and pushing. The argument here could be that "how can I get good if I can't play challenging heroes" and that is a bad argument as you have to first get to grips with the basics and improve on your competency in game and this includes things like map awareness, personal awareness, effectiveness in team fights, how you execute your skills and just your overall game play. Until you have achieved a slightly above average level of skilled game play, high tier heroes are better off avoided till you get down to the basics and work on what you're can easily achieve.
Things to work on and each of these is equally important but some more than others depending on the hero you chose to play.
> Map Awareness
> Skill Execution
> Situational and Personal Awareness
> Team Impact
> Positioning.
[color=Lightseagreen]GENERAL LANING PHASE:[/color]
How it should be in an ideal world. The carry goes top with a support or two depending on whether you're running a light utility jungler. Up top your job is to get the carry farm while denying farm from the offlane player and maintaining lane equilibrium with pulls. At some point you need to kill your lane up top, if he is making it hard for you to get at him attempt a gank elsewhere, do not just idle in the lane as over time this will see you under leveled and in need of farm.
The offlaner should be primarily focused on getting the most out of his lane, you're getting experience, getting last hits where safely possible, and trying to harrass, you're not stressing your mid to gank at 3 minutes in because you know that as long as you don't die you're winning your lane. Carry a TP on you around the time you hit level 4-5 as it may be needed to get to another lane where you can use your level advantage to turn a team fight. Buying a decent amount of consumables and even a bottle is ideal as it can keep you in lane longer even if it does slow down some other items, if you get levels you will get kills which will get you faster farm then trying to get core items without consumables and losing the gold cause you're dying all the time. Play it safe and smart and you should be golden. If the lane is getting really hard to even stay in, try ganking mid or stacking ancients, or even jungling.
The mid player is getting his farm and levels keeping a watchful eye on the other lanes. You are rune controling and once you have some initial items you're looking for your ganks, keeping mobility is key as you will need to return to your mid lane to prevent the opposition from pushing it in your absence. Perhaps let the offlane go middle if he has suffered in his out lane.
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I will answer questions you have in detail and will continue to update this post as I find out more and coach more people. I find that a lot of times I tend to repeat myself in coaching sessions as people all commit the same mistakes. These aren't massive mistakes but small things they do which on their own don't hurt but repeating these mistakes over and over throughout a game can cost you a win or at least make it hard for you to win.