I feel like you underestimate it, sounds like the enemies cant focus your tower while you are killing them. Thats why i reminded you that tower can't regenerate their health.
This one
"if any friendly heroes or creeps are contesting tower or rax there would be no point using a glyph as the enemy team can change their damage to creeps or heroes."
The most logical way to use it is when you are defending tower/rax and when they still try damage the tower, you can just beat the crap out of them while the tower is keep shooting. Using it while you are not there will just waste the glyph because they are able to destroy the next one. Save the glyph for the tower/rax where you are defending
Or the rare occasion like trading towers, it will give time for you to destroy the opponent's and tp to your tower except it doesn't work against Tiny with aghanim
Or give times for you to resurrect while the enemies is punching your tower.
^ He's using an arbitrary number to make an example.
The best point to use glyph is when your enemy is doing maximum damage. This means wait for all 5 heroes to be attacking the tower, wait for troll to ult, lycan to howl, etc. Obviously, use judgement.
"Would it not be the most logical to fortify the T2 instead of saving it for the T3, when the T2 could fire extra attacks in the 5 seconds and the sooner you use it the sooner it will be off cooldown again?"
It's a serious waste to blow the glyph on the T2. You think they are going to wait 5 minutes to keep pushing? You will never get two glyphs off in the duration of one enemy push so you can consider it like you get 1 charge of glyph. The damage the T2 will do is negligible compared to the amount of damage you can do by winning a team fight. Besides, what is that, like 3-4 tower attacks? That isn't significant at all.
Here's why it's better to glyph the T3: If you glyph the T3, the enemy will be forced to retreat into a low ground position which gives your team at least 30 seconds of breathing room before the next enemy creep waves comes as opposed to 5 seconds where they breach high ground and have no reason to retreat. This gives you time for your spells to come off cooldown, and allies to revive.
Wait for good pushing spells to be used like Edict, Troll ulti, howl. Also unlike Dota 1 it stops magic damage as well. Can't tell how annoying it is to see a tower getting denied when you are a Pugna just because blast doesn't hit it through glyph. Also communicate with your team. I have seen a lot of late glyphs go to waste and people going in when you already have glyph.
The reason why some people don't use glyph for t2 is because;
1. you can't def the tower and all you do is waste 5 seconds of the enemies time
2. you want to save it for towers you can actually defend
I use the glyph to buy time to tp and stop a push. If you aren't going to defend then you are right, it's a waste of glyph just delays the inevitable by 5 seconds. But well timed glyphs can be quite strong, how many times do you see enemy mid about to drop the T1 in a small window, glyph, tp in, mid has to back up, you end up denying the tower? It happens quite a bit with good timing.
ty for your responses, frustratingly i am still not convinced, why is the T3 glyph better it offers the exact same time delay (obviusly assuming howl/dp ulti etc are not applicable and the enemy is outputting a constant amount of damage)
are you implying that the meta game of glyphing a T3 tower has more of a significant impact then the meta game of glyphing a T2 tower?
if a team was to back because of a gylph on a T3 why would then not back from the same time delay on a T2?
it would still be the same amount of time that they are able to output damage to the T3...
are people just scared of pushing a glyphed T3?
also some more confusion.
other then using a glyph to deny a tower, or kill an overextended enemy hero. The gylphs purpose IS to delay as many enemy heroes as possible despite the fact that their push is inevitable or not, you use the glyph to take time from the enemy...
T3 you have elevation and it's impossible to run around and flank you like with a T2. T3's are easier to defend and thus the glyph is more effective there. But I understand your point, if glyph will let you successfully defend a T2 you should use it there. A lot of it is just mental, players arbitrarily saying eh it's just a T2 I won't tp back and going oh shhhhht they're on our raxx!
"Here's why it's better to glyph the T3: If you glyph the T3, the enemy will be forced to retreat into a low ground position which gives your team at least 30 seconds of breathing room before the next enemy creep waves comes as opposed to 5 seconds where they breach high ground and have no reason to retreat. This gives you time for your spells to come off cooldown, and allies to revive."
if a team was to back because of a gylph on a T3 why would then not back from the same time delay on a T2?
are you implying that the meta game of glyphing a T3 tower has more of a significant impact then the meta game of glyphing a T2 tower?
Because there is no high ground / low ground advantage at a T2. The positioning is undeniably less risky at a T2 than at a T3 since you don't have to walk up high ground to avoid miss chances, etc.
Let's say the game is dead even. As the pushing team, would you rather team fight on level ground near the T2, or on level ground INSIDE THE ENEMY BASE?
How many times have you been on a team where you are pushing the enemy base and you start chasing your enemies deep into their base and end up dying because of it? "Please just attack the tower" "Please just attack the rax" -> you all died and you didn't even get the tower.
oh i see! ty.
but i feel you may be missing the point here though, you would want to use a glyph in the situation that would delay them the most, a situation where there is the smallest chance for hero vs hero combat (pushing team only able to attack the tower) would be best.
if you use a glyph i dont understand why it would be logical for the pushing team to start diving??
is it assumed that players pushing a glyphed T3 will be likely to make the mistake of diving? thus making a T3 fort more logical??
No they won't dive, that's the whole point. On a t3 you glyph, tp in during the fortification, they all retreat, your tower takes no damage.
On a t2 they can simply kill you as you tp in then resume killing your tower. To successfully defend a t2 you still need some sort of advantage since tp'ing in will let them initiate on you.
^ but its the SAME time delay! weather you fort the T3 or T2 you will be TPing in at the same time...
unless you are implying that the gylph has some metagame implication on a T3, in theory it doesnt!
Max you are confusing yourself. You need understand a couple of things first.
1) Rambosalad has state the importance of fortifying at t3s. "Because there is no high ground / low ground advantage at a T2. The positioning is undeniably less risky at a T2 than at a T3 since you don't have to walk up high ground to avoid miss chances, etc." The main thing here is the chokepoint that is present when pushing t3 is an important element to remember when pushing t3. If your team (pushing team) commits to a push ( I say commit because most heroes have to go uphill, past choke point to push efficiently) then you would usually fortify. Now, in this scenario, the pushing team is in a situation( whether to stay and have a teamfight in that small area with t3 tower hitting your team - a disadvantage). They can also fall back and have to walk downhill and past chokepoint again. This is also disadvantageous cause your team is together in a small area ( just like chokepoints at rosh) Therefore fortifying at t3s when the enemy team has commit a push creates the advantage for you team to win teamfights.
2) Fortifying is never about creating as much delay as you can. Its about creating as much advantage as you can in the game. If you can fortify t2 so that enigma can blackhole a 5 man team then why not. But most of the time, fortifying t2 doesnt create any significant advantage for your team. The enemy team can back of without creating any disadvantage for themselves, unlike t3.
And @GOOK SLAYER 420 - no, you would never once again fortify a tower whenver someone is hitting the tower. Remember, glyph is all about creating small advantages for your team. Doesnt matter if you only glyph once in the whole game. If that glyph lets you win teamfights, then its all that matters.
Dude you just aren't getting it. You can fort a T2, tp in and the enemy team can still f you up because they can flank your tower. If you fort a T3 and tp in they will definitely have to back up cus of high ground, they can flank you. Forting a T3 always works, forting a T2 doesn't always work.
ohhhhhhhhhh i see i see!!
Glyph at T2: 25sec for T2, 20 sec for T3 push
Glyph at T3: 20 sec for T2, 25 sec to T3 push
you would want to fort the T3 because the position favors your team fight, having an additional 5 seconds with enemy in a choke point and a downhill advantage will almost always out weigh the small benefit of forting the T2 (extra T2 tower hits and reduced c/d time)
the delay is the same but the advantage comes from where you are delaying them.
ty everyone sorry this took me so long to get :)
It has nothing to do with timing, get timing out of your head, it has to do with using the glyph when you can best defend the tower. The amount of time it delays the enemy team from killing your tower is irrelevant.
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No glyph: 20sec for towerpush, 20 sec to kill rax. = 40 sec before bad event (rax dies).
Glyph at twr: 25sec for towerpush, 20 sec to kill rax = 45 sec before bad event (rax dies).
Glyph at rax: 20sec for towerpush, 25 sec to kill rax = 45 sec before bad event (rax dies).
if any friendly heroes or creeps are contesting tower or rax there would be no point using a glyph as the enemy team can change their damage to creeps or heroes.
Would it not be the most logical to fortify the T2 instead of saving it for the T3, when the T2 could fire extra attacks in the 5 seconds and the sooner you use it the sooner it will be off cooldown again?
(assuming they are pushing at a steady rate, if they where about to use a DP ulti or something it would be a good idea to save)
so many people disagree i feel like i'm missing the whole point? why do people save glyph?