General DiscussionSkadi on Meepo

huh what do you mean
trav/treads +blink +hex/eb/manta after that you arent going to get a 3.2k dead end item lol.
not to mention UO builds into 3 different item that meepo can buy which is so much more flexible

With Skadi you're paying for slot efficiency not item efficiency.

if 20 stats for every meepo isnt good why people build tarrasque on him since its 32 str only

its 25/40 for reaver/heart what are you talking about
or are u confused between 3200 gold 32 str ._.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/857385551

u w0t w9?
u said 1 skadi?
how bout 3?

do i haf to explain evertin

1st. why would rush ALL those items over survivability first. i'd cri if you were playing carry on my team cuz it looks like bkb would be your 6th item. Only item you might want to get b4 a reaver first maybe hex/manta. You pick 1 then survivability not all of them wtf.

2nd. then you build it into a fucking heart.

3rd. lel late game on Meepo and you think a bit of dmg is more impt than more hp. .

4th. if you have a 6 full slotted meepo (all big items) and the game haven't ended it means 1: you're a bad meepo, 2: you have no fucking buyback, 3: if you're rich enough to be 6 slotted AND have buyback you're a retarded dumbass by not ending it earlier (you're telling me what, you're 6 slotted because you started focusing on farming after the 35-40 min mark? if so, you're horrible. and if you're 6 slotted on kills alone then you're still a dumass for not ending

do not

talk smart

i actually bothered getting the values for this

Pls don't play meepo, you clearly didn't understand him.

1 more thing 50.00% wr.

edit: dont get mad m8, but why you are so mad xD you can't force your decisions on other people.
when i walk into the pub and see that vanguard antimage i can't change his mind no matter how hard i try.
or that vlads+mek meepo. you can't change that.

don't* not didn't*.

1. u clearly didn't intend for tt grammar mistake

2. thx for always building hex on meepos, makes me happy

3. gl on your 6k smurf

4. yes i don't understnd meep much

you 'are right, a skadi isn't a good item for meepo, you should get 2 skadis :P

By Humdinger's logic we should just stack Ironwood Branches and it'd be gg because dat price per stat.

1.) why would i care, i'm writing to an asian idiot who can't use his head.
2.) I don't think thats possible
3.) thx
4.) that's why you should stop playing him

@Sunrise

wr =/= skill

i'm a horrible pudge/storm/morph but have a rocking kda and wr with them, means nothing. I'm better and have more impact on meepo than on them. Go mmr fluctuations and probability!

ah well thats what this thread is for. if people read this and somehow think skadi is efficient then i don't think i'll bother anymore cuz it reflects their cognitive ability.

@Dacheat

by my logic you don't build heart instead of reaver due to inefficient cost + benefits until you run out of item slots

by logic itself you should be able to infer from that

what are u on

http://www.dotabuff.com/players/15478778/matches?date=&faction=&hero=meepo&lobby_type=&game_mode=&region=&duration=

look what this guy builds on meepo, lol.
it doesn't matter as long as you are skilled enough.

-_-

case and point, wr >60% and large match pool.

anything <60% in a small match pool is well within the standard deviation lol. its just luck.

By the laws of probability, a person with a 90 matches on X hero could have 45% wr and 3.5 kda could very well have a 55% wr and 4.3 kda, its way more common than people want to accept. flip a coin a 100 times y dont u, you'd realize getting +/- 5 is bloody easy and +/-10 occurs more commonly than ppl think

which is why my pudge and morph wr and kda mean nothing cuz they were ez matches and a small pool gives inflated stats. if i breakeven on my nxt 40 pudge games i would still be like 55% at 100 matches, still means nth

but well I've vented my stress and had fun with trolls.

Not really gonna bother with this thread anymore unless theres an interesting comment. Enjoy the explanation for what its worth, don't listen to it if you don't want to. W/e floats your goats people.

^sorry man i can't understand what u tryinna say.
so you say if i have 30% wr on a hero and 1.5 kda, i can still be good at him? over 90 games.
or vice versa if i have 70% wr on a hero and 5.77 kda, i can be bad at him? over 90 games.
thats what you said to me, and it makes no sense :D
btw that neo dude has 1.1k games and 70% winrate on meepoh. i guess he can build anything he wants and still have ez katka.

let the scrub write bullshit. At some point he may use his tiny brain and figure out why his nonsense makes him look like a retard.

Please don't change my words. I said anything within 10 lol.

Its probability. Its maths. If you don't want to accept it then don't? You just gotta view yourself objectively. Meepo is my best hero even if my stats say otherwise. I'm objectively determining my skill Morph/Storm/Pudge ain't good, just got lucky.

Its like at one point my Earth Spirit was like 35% win rate but I'm content with my skill with him. Small pool, got unlucky and w/e.

I mean you should be able to tell if you're good or not.

Like if I wanted to be a real a-hole, I'd say stuff like if I had your MMR then I'd be 60% and 4 kda minimum on every hero.

See? Stats =/= much.

If you really wanted them to accurate for comparison, you'd need a large match pool and consistent MMR.

edit: lel blunt got mad

^^ there is 2 types of good:
1. has 30% winrate and just manages to raise it to 50 (my es for example).
2. has fuckin EZ 66% winrate steamroll most of the games ( my slark).

1. you think you are good, and you try hard, and you actually become good.
2. you are fuckin awesome at this hero, so amazing FUCKIN EZ.

so you are clearly 1. i don't know why i just wrote this anyway, 0 points made.
still dude you can't say you are "good" with barely 50 wr, you can say you can play the hero pretty well, but good = consistency = good wr + good kda.

LeL, scrub thinks i'm mad how kawai.

you're still bad, it won't change, suck it ballerino.

@sunrise:
don't bother, OP is an ignorant fool. I think he might be american, those people tend to have a big ass blockhead. That's why i won't even explain why he's wrong and why he won't be able to get anything out of meepo except for a 50% winrate.

I don't think you can talk much about understanding of the hero or item choices when you barely have a 50% wr and a 2.5 kda with a pubstomper like meepo after 100 matches.

One of the best meepo players in the world, as well as one of the best pubstars.
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/129610677/matches?date=&faction=&hero=meepo&lobby_type=&game_mode=&region=&duration=
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/129610677/items?date=&faction=&hero=meepo&lobby_type=&game_mode=&duration=&metric=used
Unless you're better than him, please keep your mouth shut.

Do all the meepos apply the skadi debuff? I think you are underestimating how strong a -35 IAS can be. Though I never play meepo and I would probably get heart first, I might build a skadi over a 2nd heart.

Can all the people saying op sucks explain why skadi is amazing on him? Would you go skadi over heart?

I think you were trying to explain to me the logic behind win rates.

Also, I apologise for the MMR comment. It was immature of me since I have won against people with considerably higher MMR as well as lost against those lower.

There are different examples of 'good'. You can't just categorize everything like that according to winrate. For example, I often first pick Meepos or pick him regardless of enemy picks. Does this lower my winrate cuz I keep going against Ember/Earthshaker? Yes. Do I care? No, cuz its about how I get better with him. If I really wanted puffy stats, I'd be counterpicking everygame and selecting heroes carefully.

Likewise my earlier example on how I could breakeven on my remaining 40 pudge games (which isn't that hard mind you) and I would have like a 55% win rate on him. That might seem good at a 100 game match pool but it doesn't change the fact I'm far from amazing on him.

skadi on meepo is fine.

Oleksandr, you sir, are one mighty dumb fuck LOL.

1. Explain to me mechanically and logically why Skadi would be better than the other items.

2. Your tiny little brain can't comprehend his skill with Meepo? Do you think he's winning that much because of an optimal item build or because of superior skill?

3. You see if I was you, I'd be saying this. A dumbfuck with a negative winrate shouldn't post on this forums at all. Stfu scrub and don't post links of other people.

4. See? Not very intelligent or nice is it?

5. Dumbfuck.

@Xan, its fine. Just not amazing or the best. Thats why I mentioned its alright if you want to get it if you want both damage and health immediately. But don't say its the best, cuz it isn't. Not on Meepo at least.

@timber, i go skadi cuz snowball much, bonus armor and as and damage is good enough for me rather than a slowpoking 6k hp meepo.
skadi is to steamroll and push fast, also manta could work.

@humdinger, so you imply you don't care if you win? i always go something i can win with and i am sure will play ok according to the enemy pick. if i feel like playin some meepo and i see shaker and/or lich enemy, i immediately reconsider my decision.

I do like wins but...

Winning games against counterpicks is a very, very satisfying thing.

I mean I have won games where I played really bad. These wins are the least satisfying.

Then there were also games I lost where I felt like I played really good. And you know when you call gg and the opponent goes like "wp meepo" you feel really satisfied despite the lost? Receiving compliments in pubs is one of the greater things because we all know how toxic the community is.

well winrate is somewhat representative of your skill with the hero, there are some exceptions but usually it reflects how u play it

Meepo's (main/clone) EHP at lvl 25 with BoTs, Aghs and blink: 3825/3457
Meepo's (main/clone) EHP at lvl 25 with BoTs, Aghs, blink and Skadi: 5832/4892
Meepo's (main/clone) EHP at lvl 25 with BoTs, Aghs, blink and HoT: 5776/4855

As you can see, with Skadi you get higher EHP, higher base damage, higher AS and more mana. Sure, the passive is somewhat wasted, but it's still one of the best items you can get stat-wise (HoT's passive is wasted as well).

As I said, if you don't know what are you talking about, please keep your mouth shut.

PS: Negative numbers are the ones who are to the left of the zero. 49 is a positive number, not a negative one. I can understand that you can't calculate the "complex" math behind EHP, but positive and negative numbers is from like first grade.

Its like at one point my Earth Spirit was like 35% win rate but I'm content with my skill with him. Small pool, got unlucky and w/e.

I mean you should be able to tell if you're good or not.

this guy is living up to the term ignorance

there is no such thing as 'best'. if thats what you are looking for you won't find it.
sometimes the hex is best sometimes you want manta, sometimes eb or skadi.

it completely depends on the game. and most of the time when you get those big items they are redundant anyways.
like my last game http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/859853794
after I got aghs dagger hex by 20ish it didn't matter what so ever if I get or what I get afterwards.
you usually want to tank up and skadi gives the best bang for buck in that regard.

Why do I feed the trolls.

@kakatotdumbfuck, lovely private profile mate. I'd take being an ignorant scrub over a statwhore anyday. You masturbate to good stats or too ashamed to show bad ones?

@Oleksandr, no you sir, should shut the fuck up. Get off your damn high horse. No idea why you come into here to be toxic when you're clearly don't play the hero much. Not very good at it either (dude you built a cuirass).

1. Skadi costs 175g more in exchange for 56 more EHP. You know, the problem lies with the last part. How often does a Meepo die to autoattacks as opposed to an Echoslam or Macropyre? Raw HP provides more flexibility on this part and I can hardly picture you'd want more EHP over raw HP.

2. Like I said, survivability > damage on Meepo. How many times must I repeat myself that a huge portion of the damage you dish out is due to your passive and poof? Are you really imagining it as "my gawd my meepos each hit for 110 and now +25! daz like 20% more damage!" Uhh no. You also need to consider the fact most enemies drop dead after a blink poof and 2-3 autos from a Meepo. On paper that 13% more damage (idk can't be fucked to actually count this out) might seem worth it but its not practical. On the other hand, having more HP lets you do more damage AND

AND

YOU KNOW AND, IT HELPS TANK FOR YOUR TEAM!!! WOW!!! Creating that second more of space for your team I believe would dish out more damage than your +25 agi would.

3. Like I also said, when its finally time you want to build bloody fucking damage. Get an EB. It gives you all those stats for a far lower price AND it gives you an amplifier for blink poof, an extra nuke or a saving mechanism for allies or Meepos.

Picture 2 EoS versus Heart+EB. Thats 100 effective stats (stfu about the int, meepo doesn't need that fucking mana lol) versus 100 effective stats. Thats 11350g versus 10400g. And you know what? You actually get an Active thats useful! I already explained why the passive is useless.

So you might be thinking, why not Eos+EB? Because like I said, thats overkilling it on the armor. More HP would be better. EoS+Heart? Why EoS when EB is cheaper and gives same stats+active?

Stop it already, it breaks my heart seeing you try to explain.

@xan, I already said this is an anal thing lol. Its like getting getting Crystalys when you have 76 damage will provide higher % increase in DPS as opposed to Demon Edge. Hardly going to affect you much if you got one of the over though especially if its your first item.

personalyl i find hex on meepo a wonderful item

eblade as well

skadi > heart

ac can be bought by teammates

i dont play like this garbage hero anyway

"Get off your damn high horse"

bit hypocritical isnt it?

you just assume peoples opinions are wrong and yours are right, respond condescendingly to anyone who joins the discussion, you make excuses for your average winrate on a hero you claim to have a good understanding of, because it's okay for you to have a low winrates but not anyone else apparently, and you wont (or can't) explain why professional players choose skadi over heart rather than the other way around.

you're just coming off as a dick who's trying to be edgy by saying 'fuck' every other sentence.

fyi some of the argument you've just cherry picked certain bits of information and left out the rest

"First off, right off the bat you lose the extra benefits such as +250 health and +250 mana"
heart's HP bonus and HP regen is lost on the clones, so why is heart exempt from this rule of "not an attribute, therefore shit"

"Next is the fucking retarded passive you get from it. Now why on fucking earth, would you need another slow when your Meepos can already attain the fucking MAXIMUM slow?"
maybe if for some reason, your net on the main meepo is on cooldown, so the extra slow can help you set up the earthbinds from your other meepos, or allow them in the first place if an enemy could have escaped if it werent for the skadi slow. shit happens, not every game is black-and-white where you always have net and/or hex off cooldown when you want it.

"you calculate the cost per stat"
cost per stat isnt the end-all-be-all to determining an item's effectiveness. yes you get more out of your gold by getting a reaver, but assuming money isnt the problem, then you want the most stats you can buy. so if money isn't the problem, which it generally isnt on meepo with how fast he farms, why get a reaver when you could get a skadi?

or why get heart when skadi's cost per stat is less than heart's?
skadi - 25 agi and 25 str, so 50 stats for 5675g - 5675g / 50 = 113.5 -> 114g for 1 stat
heart - 40 str for 5500g, 5500/ 40 = 137.5g > 137g for 1 stat
even by rounding skadi up and heart down, skadi still "wins" the gold-per-stat argument.

you probably left that bit of info out because that would point out a flaw in your argument, although the argument itself is also flawed since gold-per stat isnt meaningful when each attribute does not have the same value.

1 str isnt as useful as 1 agi when you're looking at it from purely a building damage perspective for example, and 1 agi means jack shit vs magic damage. having a bit of both means that you're not lacking too much of any stat.

"Picture 2 EoS versus Heart+EB. Thats 100 effective stats vs 100 effective stats"
2 EOS is 50 x 2 stats
heart is 40 str, and EB is 10 str and 40 agi, which is 90.

not that you'd get 2 skadi's anyway. for EHP, getting two hearts or two skadis is generally inferior to getting one of each

"Like I said, survivability > damage on Meepo"
if this is always the rule, why would you ever go heart + EB instead of eye of skadi and a heart. for example, if you get to a point where you're unkillable even without a heart, what would be the point of getting one? why not go for more damage?

"It [EB] gives you all those stats for a far lower price"
EB gives damage and next to no survivability, skadi gives a bit of both, and heart just gives survivability. by your bullshit rules earlier, you should never get EB over skadi, since survivability is more important than damage, and skadi is the next best survivability item if you already have a heart - unless against 100% non-physical damage.

I don't even play meepo but I don't need to. your argument has tons of holes in it and you're coming off as an ignorant asshole.

edit/P.S. in italics:
""Like I said, survivability > damage on Meepo"

if this is always the rule, why would you ever go heart + EB instead of eye of skadi and a heart.
and if it isn't always the rule, for example, if you get to a point where you're unkillable even without a heart, what would be the point of getting one? why not go for more damage?

e.g. you go skadi first, then EB later so that each meepo hits for 65 more vs buildings, and your poof combo is also boosted. lack of survivability from EB is moot when you're in a situation where the enemy can't kill you.

Thats like saying...

damage>survivability on carries so why do you ever go BKB?

The point still stands. You want to build survivability first to maximise your impact and presence. lol thats like the most forced argument today. You can then go for damage afterwards. Personally? I don't go EB at all. I tend to rush survivability and save for buybacks, playing a frontline tanky Meepo that still does tons of damage. Lastly, EB does provide survivability, 10 strength and the active to disable enemies/save meepos/save allies. And its way more cost effective than Skadi.

better BOTS/hex/eb/manta than skadi. Skadi is like when u have nothing else to buy

"Thats like saying...

damage>survivability on carries so why do you ever go BKB?"

no it isnt?
you're the one making up rules here. since there's no forced meta, where's the rulebook saying that you -have- to get survivability over damage first?

"You want to build survivability first to maximise your impact and presence."

replacing words, i could argue a glass cannon build with

'you want to build damage first to maximise your impact and presence'
enemies can't do anything if you kill them fast enough

tinkers an example of damage>survivability. most people go dagon or hex as a major item after bts and blink.

"Lastly, EB does provide survivability, 10 strength and the active to disable enemies/save meepos/save allies."
this is why i try to not edit comments, so people don't bullshit and put words into my mouth.

I did not say 'EB provides no survivability', I said "[i]next to[/i] no survivability[/i]
the str is inferior to skadi or heart so the only trait it has over these items for survivability is the ether blast active. since that only works against physical and you're so intent on proving that heart > skadi, one of your reasons being that HP is more versatile than EHP. guess what, skadi's HP > EB's HP.

also care to refute the other points? like professional players not following your item logic, even though you know, they're obviously doing something right if they're making money and you aren't.

In short your best argument is that because pro players don't use it, its bad?

Its blatantly obvious you just want to have a go at me lol. Okay.

1. Pros players don't use =/= bad item. This argument is horribly weak. Seriously? There have been plenty of past cases where items weren't used and they were good. Blink Fur? And HoT is the least flashy item for pros to use in pub games. And pub games also =/= professional games. Its a different meta. Also, you telling me I'm a horrible mid because I don't get midas every game like Arteezy?

2. I have already explained why survivability is important on Meepo wtf you on. Meepo's main strength is jumping in, killing one guy and being a tanky mofo you can't stop. His damage sources barely come from his agi in mid game which makes it stupid to build agility at this point. Armor isn't that useful yet because enemy carries aren't that strong yet. Saying go class cannon meepo is like saying go glass cannon Razor or glass cannon Viper.

3. Saying next to no survivability is the equivalent of saying no survivability. Pulling a 'no dude thats just what you inferred' is an extremely childish way of winning an argument. You were clearly implying that. Regardless, do not fucking tunnel vision so you can win your argument. EB>Skadi because Meepos want stats and EB costs less while giving 50 stats like EoS as well as a useful active. Besides, isn't the argument here people build Skadi for damage? Now you're arguing about why the hell I'm suggesting an item that provides damage at the most efficient cost?

Can you not seriously?

I really cannot stand people like you who say shit because they just want to say stuff. If anything, if you were a Meepo player who mained EoS who came to defend his item choice, that'd make sense. Your're just here to spout lousy arguments. What the hell?

Lol but once again glass cannon Meepo.

"Shit gais that Meepo has 4 butterflys, he's gonna mow us down! Not like we can kill him with spells or anything! He's impossible to kite as well, he starts with 315 ms! He won't block himself either cuz the guys a micro king!"

No forced meta? Indeed the meta is subject to change. Certain things are downright set in stone though. I don't care how you build him. A Shadow Demon is not becoming a right click carry. A Morph isn't going to be a good support.

I don't know why you want to troll me here. Did I offend you in any other thread?

^ i main meepo with skadi = ez wins most of the times.
skadi gives dat agi, my nigga. to PUSH.
+manta and BoT meepo is the best rat.
meepo isn't only to kill 1 guy and tank 6 ultimates and die.

I already explained why even though it works, its not optimal.

And thats like the best argument so far today, Sunrise. Though my response is if you're creating a split push Meepo, then you'd totally want to skip HP and just go EB instead of EoS.

But honestly with 1 of the greatest snowball heroes that benefits so greatly from teamfights even if breakeven (thanks to exp), it'd make more sense to go tank, win the fight then BoT and push. Cuz you can always split while joining a teamfight.

I used to be an adventure like you but then, I took skadi to the knee!