The +16% MS bonus is the key point here. Heroes like Slark, SF and Lifestealer can all use the item really well, the bit of extra bulk and damage helps too. The actual stats by themselves are awful, and any hero that doesn't really get much out of the +MS is probably wasting their money if they buy this item.
Yes, move speed i figured was the selling point here, but still, 16% + ms.....I'd spend money on a diffusal for slark for example instead, or work towards a skadi/manta. S & Y for lifestealer....I'd prefer a simple orb of venom instead. But ur point makes sense for escaping yes. Shadow blade in pubs works much better tho :p , altho I'm not a fan of it.
I love Yasha SO much, one of the best items IN THE GAME!
I get yasha first and depending on the hero/how the game is going I decide what I am going to make with it.
Would like an icon rework though.
probably one of the best items a mid game str or agi hero could buy
although I like getting it when we win to display the V for victory.
its a good first item for hybrids who need a little bit of everything to start doing shit. like slark, troll etc.
+its easy to buy
Also can be disassembled if you decide you want Manta or Halberd later. If you afford to afk farm it might not be important, but if you fight a lot, these small pieces can make the difference. If you have 1500 gold you don't need to avoid fights until you get 2100 to get the ultimate orb. Also the manta active costs a bit of mana you might not afford early game.
the only heroes i like it is lifestealer and bloodseeker if you are really ahead, since it just slows down actually good items
S&Y is great item on alot of heroes and its almost never useless on agility/strenght cores. If you buy it early it can be really strong. Ofc if you buy it 40 + min. its kind of a waste. But if you get it before 20 min. on heroes like Slark,Lifestealer,Drow and so on it can be really strong.
@OP, you really suck, go home bro.
@BogI: Nice pudgestreak mate. How long will you take to get to 5k? need another year dontcha?
easy to build + highest ms gain + good stats
good stats = +hp +dmg
whats not to like?
it's ok.
16 str equals 304 hp
and 16 agi equals 2.24 armor
+16 damage, 16 attack speed, 16% ms
the slow is nice, and it isn't an orb effect anymore, so you can build it on Drow and perma-slow people. (used by Loda, he lost the game tho)
sometimes you can go SaY over Manta.
Let's say the other team has a lot of AoE to kill your illusions
or you don't have to dispel any skills with the manta active (like silences) and you want extra hp to survive.
I swear by s&y. It's amazing. There are not many good hp items for agi heroes, that's mainly why I build it cus I want more hp and I don't need bkb. Really the only practical hp items for agi heroes are s&y, manta, bkb, skadi and drums (satanic and heart can be awesome later but they are 5th or 6th slot items, almost never core on an agi hero). Drums is a nice but small item, bkb is situational, skadi is not suited for every hero and is bad to rush it most times. So it comes down to s&y vs manta and whether you prefer illusions and 10 more agi for ~800 more gold, or more hp, move speed and the proc for less gold.
Don't discount the proc either, it lasts 5 seconds so it has great uptime even with a relatively low proc rate. It's 80% of a shiva's passive + active on one target so it's actually quite strong.
And people act like 300 hp is not a lot. Consider being sniper at level 16 with base hp under 1000. S&y adds over 31% hp to him. It's a big difference.
I personally like it for agility heroes that need strength and strength heroes that need attack speed, and obviously 16% ms
What doubleR said, I mentioned the hp on agi heroes angle but the inverse is true for str heroes. Only other great attack speed item for str heroes is AC, sometimes mjollnir.
Disassembling it for manta+ Halberd is a good call sometimes. You get the early benefits and the late ones too.
Yeah but I can't think of many heroes who would actually want to use an item slot on both those items. Tiny maybe? Manta is pretty good on him, halberd though? Naix maybe? Never seen a naix with manta. Dragon knight could use both, razor maybe.
S&Y best item on slark, good on TA, SF. Dont know why this item is so underrated by many ppl.
Yeah Wagamama also does this SnY thing in pubs on TA. He calls it Manfight TA.
Basically his logic was in pubs you can't really trust your team mates to be there when you use Blink/Desolator/Dedalus to snipe people. And later on it gets harder and harder.
So what he does is he goes Phase Boots into Yasha and then upgrades it into a SnY later he gets shit like Skaddi/Bfly/Satanic/Dedalus
I tried this in a normal game with some of my IRL friends and i snowballed like crazy. Yet to try it in 4000+MMR on Ranked.
You gain incredible movement speed and combined with you traps and Skaddi if you rush it after SnY it's insane how much you can control fights with slowing people and being generally faster then 90% of the heroes.
I love sny and get it every chance I can. It's such a unique item that gives hp and movespeed. Great for all str and agi right clickers, and I would even say it wouldn't be the worse on int right clickers. Great build up, heroes can never have too much hp and ms.
One of the things that would make the item better is if hailbird and manta had better synergy. In hon, the sange was a component of skadi (sange + ulti orb + point booster + recipe) and was a lot more viable to have manta/skadi over manta/hailbird. I don't really see a point of disassembling the sny.
Great feedback guys, thank you. Yes, I now see why S&Y can be useful.
Could someone talk about the maim chance a bit more in detail tho? How is it that you get the 16% chance to proc effectively, I mean is it that S & Y gives a lot in stats and move speed, but you can't really rely on the maim because of its low 16% rate? Especially while chasing, when you need it the most? What I want to know is, what does a paper 16% chance mean? How many times does the maim actually proc? Anyone done any experiments on this?
Have you read anything in this thread? People don't buy the item for the maim, and the item does not rely on maim procs for it to be worth it.
@OP 16% means Maim will proc once for every 6.25 hits.
Just wanted to say something about stacking SnY with Skadi on TA:
SnY isn't an orb, therefore the Maim 32% slow stacks with other slow effects (not the main reason why SnY it's good on TA but it still amazing) so if you activate a trap that's not charged your target will lose 30% ms (I'll use the ms value of SF w/ PT, so 355-->248 ms) and then a further decrease of 32% if the maim procs (248->168 ms OR 121 ms if you exploded a fully charged trap).
Since MS reduction caps at 100 i.e. your target won't move slower than 100 regardless of how many slows are applied. That means that if you have the attack speed for SNY to proc (which you will by the time you farmed Skadi) you are not getting the benefit of Skadi slow. Though you might argue that the most important aspect of SnY is the 16% ms bonus and that the 16% Maim isn't reliable. Maybe SnY + Skadi is overkill? I guess it is more reliable but idk if investing in so slow/hp is better than pure dmg.
At the moment, it seems that if you are able to get Sny and Skadi on TA and still have enough dmg to win fights then woudln't that mean that you can win with any items?! BRB gonna check Waga's Skadi games.
"At the moment, it seems that if you are able to get Sny and Skadi on TA and still have enough dmg to win fights then woudln't that mean that you can win with any items?! BRB gonna check Waga's Skadi games."
s&y plus skadi is still a lot of damage though, 57 dmg, 57 attack speed. Add that to TA's built in increases, 80 from refraction, 200 from meld with armor reduction, she can dish a ton of damage even without pure dmg items.
I had a TA rush a heart once in one of my games. That didn't work at all. Literally all he had was boots and heart. Don't do shit like that.
![Ath[e]isT](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/fe/fef49e7fa7e1997310d705b2a6158ff8dc1cdfeb_full.jpg "Ath[e]isT")
Sny is good on heroes that need the mobility but won't get much out of making a manta style..
Good example of this is like a carry abbadon. You can stack it with an eye of skadi plus abbadons passive slow.
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Sange and Yasha (Gold 4100)
Passive: Greater Maim - Gives a chance on attack to slow movement speed for 5.0 seconds.
MAIM CHANCE: 16%
MAIM MOVEMENT SLOW: -32%
MAIM ATTACK SLOW: -32
+ 16 Damage
+ 16 Strength
+ 16 Agility
+ 16 Attack Speed
+ 16% Movement Speed
Can someone plz justify the utility-to-cost ratio of this item? In my very early days of dota, I would make this on a few heroes, now I feel its the most redundant item in dota. A 16% chance to slow movement and attack? For 4100 gold? Wtf?
If u argue about the stats that it gives, there are much better cheaper stat items like drums, or u can rush more expensive (but mor e cost efficient items like manta, which incorporates the yasha into it as well).
So why make this item? Can someone plz explain. Or is the 16% just a paper percentage and some how instead of a 1.5-out-of-10 chance it actually works more often. Because, u need the maim when chasing, not in team fights. And ur not gonna get a lot of hits when chasing, to proc that maim.