General DiscussionAttack speed vs minus armor for sieging

Go build a wall you noob

some asshole is gonna get a deso and tear it down anyway

Why not both, plus you already have your heal for attack speed, but to answer your question, I think the minus armor would be better

I am mainly asking this because I have a tendency not to get deso in a lot of LC games, then only get it near the end of the game (paired up with AC and BoTs) in order to rat. So I was really wondering if a moon shard in its place would have been a better idea. Though I am pretty certain that -12 armor is no joke even lategame, considering that rax and ancient actually do not have a lot of armor to begin with.

have your teammate get deso and get a mshard??????? If you're the LC

There is no general anwser to that question; if you have already have an high attack speed, buying more moonshards for example won't really increase your dps, since the number of attacks/second is calculated by: Attacks per second = [(100 + IAS) × 0.01] / BAT (IAS=increased attack speed BAT= base attack time)
In this case, minus armor should make a larger difference.
Thinking about this a little more, one should be able to calculate a limit of Attacks per second after which purchasing minus armor is more effective. This value obviously depends on which towers you are sieging, since they have different armor values.

silver ac abysal bkb legion is best legion eva

u know all the variables and the formula,m
just calculate it
why would u even post it on the forum if u got all the tools urself

(x + 120) / x * 100 - 100 = DPS increase when you buy moonshard, x is your initial attack speed.
(y+ 50) / y * 1.22 * 100 - 100 = DPS increase by buying desolator, y is your initial attack damage, 1.22 is desolator -armor multiplier when attacking tier 3 towers.

The very Best is to not pick Legion at all.

Get AC you got both AS and minus armor with that item, definitely better than both MoonShard and Desolator.

why not getting crit attack?. as with crit its good synergy i think...

The thing is the -armor also affects teammates and creeps hitting the tower so unless you are ratting it'll drop towers quicker than stacking attack speed on yourself. However I think with that much dmg AC is better than either.

"why not getting crit attack?. as with crit its good synergy i think..."

Gonna crit those buildings, yo.

"Get AC you got both AS and minus armor with that item, definitely better than both MoonShard and Desolator."

I do, but I was wondering what to go for beyond that.

At what point is building attack speed better than desolator when it comes to sieging buildings? If I play LC and have over 300 duel damage (so about 500 every right click before reductions) is it more efficient to have a moon shard in your inventory, or a desolator?

over time, people will start gaining armor just from levels or items/auras, while desolator gets less and less effective, the more armor the target has (like if target has 7 base armor and you bring it to 2, it's far more efficient than if target has 30 armor and you make it 25)

OMFG how many fucking times does this have to be explained, armor is LINEAR. Taking a target down from 7 armor to 0 has the same effect on ehp as dropping a target from 50 to 43 armor. The reason people mistakenly believe it doesn't is because that guy at 43 armor still takes like 12 hits to kill instead of 14, meanwhile that guy who went from 7 to 0 gets one shot instead of 3 shot.

I have math if you insist but it's very simple, armor increase ehp by 6% per point.

Look here's the math just cus it makes me so angry people are fucking clueless when it comes to mechanics.

A hero has 10 armor and 1000 hp. His ehp is thus 1600. After -7 from deso at 3 armor his ehp is 1180. If your hero does 100 dmg it takes you 16 attacks to kill him with 10 armor. At 3 armor it takes 12 attacks. Difference is 4 attacks.

Ok now hero has 20 armor and 1000 hp = 2200 ehp. With deso debuff 13 armor is 1780. At 20 armor it takes 22 attacks to kill him. At 13 it takes 18 attacks to kill him. Difference is 4 attacks.

So you see it's exactly the same amount of ehp removed, 4 attacks worth.

@Dire Wold
A hero with 7 armor has bonus 42% EHP from armor. while 0 armor gives 0%. So this reduction causes them to take 142/100 = 1.42 times the damage.
While hero iwth 50 armor has 300% bonus EHP and 43 armor gives 258% bonus EHP. This reduction causes them to take 400/358 = 1.11 times the damage.
I don't know what you call the same effect, though.

Because you are viewing it the wrong way. Of course in my example reducing 16 attacks to 12 attacks is a larger percentage than reducing 22 attacks to 18 which is only 18%. But the amount of time to kill a target is static. Your dps may go up more on a less armored target but the total amount of time saved killing them is static.

The problem is this isn't done in a vacuum so all your other stats also affect what item will be the biggest dps booster, armor reduction thus is reliant on how much attack speed and dmg you have and your other stats, plus there is no other item that's like exact same cost as deso for a 1to1 comparison. But it shouldn't matter what you are hitting, what matters is whether increasing your dmg or other stats over armor reduction hurts them more. People should not write off items like AC and deso just cus they are facing sven and dk though.

Unless you don't have attack speed then desolator is better.

So this is like 99% of the time. Dont forget you can't bash/crit/maelstrom buildings so any modifiers like that don't get increased by attack speed either.

8 seconds to kill someone minus 6 = 2 seconds to kill someone

is a million times more useful than 50 seconds minus 6 = 44

how can you not understand that

the %increase to your dps DECREASES as enemy armor increases, wheras crit remains static