my my,this thread has evolved into some pretty big one (pretty good tho)
@blue okay,i think i kind of get it. altho can't really reply some stuff back but "attack speed has diminishing returns with other ias items" this clears my doubts
also nowori i also buy mkb/mjo vs high armor people,but is it worth it to get more aspd just for more procs for mjolnir/mkb? (at the talent,let's just say +50 aspd) [vs high armor and normal armor]
@awakened,this is the stuff that i'm looking lol. can't really understand that formula,thanks now i just need to calculate it with 400 ias or 300 ias by myself
@perf err my original question was,do you take +aspd talent on the later games when you already have core attack speed items? let's say mjo+orch/mjo+sb (and the talent is not like dark willow's or cm,+200 aspd)
okay,maybe it depends on the game but i kind of want to ask the math dps increase on it lol
i dunno why but stacking aspd to just let more mjolnir procs doesn't really seem appealing to me,or is it that good?
my second question was,since bat 1.4/1.5/1.7 have different values for attackspeed,wat would probably the "cap" that it isn't worth it to get aspd anymore? (you know since the more aspd you have,the lesser bonuses it gives?..maybe)
okay,this question is flawed lol,some heroes just have crits and whatnot (1.4 is jugg only and has crit) and yep it depends on the game,sometimes you just want utility/lockdown items like nullifier or basher or orch or hex (most cases you won't be reaching like 450-500 aspd too i guess)
also most people here said that lower bat doesn't make aspd more valuable,i'll just accept that
@zenoth care to explain that sentence more? well it's already concise and clear but want more explanations on that/breaking it down
(well if not it's ok too)
okay i read/skimmed the thread,superduper thank you for the stuffs
To answer your question. Bat doesn't matter in your decision on whether to build more Attack speed. As already explained by multiple posters. The "cap" is the same for 1.4/1.6/1.7 bat. If you already have a lot of IAS through building Attack speed items. More Attack speed provides diminishing returns for DPS no matter what your Bat is.
because you can't really do much about it except hitting x creeps depends on your chance % and hoping it doesn't come out then punch the nearest hero possible?
edit: or wait,maybe you talking about wat to buy when you have pretty good proc passives?
Like others said, stacking attack speed leads to diminishing returns so you don't want to stack it too much. The only heroes who would opt for this are ones with dmg procs like maybe sniper or lifestealer because of feast. Crit is not the same as a proc cus it also increase with raw dmg thus heroes like PA and jug benefit well from dmg.
In general don't worry about it too much since most heroes have standard reliable builds that mix in plenty of attack speed. You probably don't want moonshards on any hero over stuff like ac, butterfly, daedulus. Mjollnir just depends on the hero, is more for aoe than for the speed.
Nice thread. Can someone answer which is better on a 5 slotted hero like TB who has high dmg with meta and high ias due to agi gain and his general build which gives him more agi. Suppose a Tb has following 5 items , what is more efficient for higher dps as the 6th item? - A daedlus or Mjolinir or Moonshard ??
5 items being (plus a BOTs in backpack):
1: Manta
2: Butterfly
3: Skadi
4: Mkb
5: Bkb
Im confused , IMO he could use the crit and damage from daedalus , but the IAS from moonshard/Mj could also be very good in pumping fast dmg on multiple targets.
if the item is like that,i'm sure daeda/thorn/null would be go to for damage,if you need hp or vs an axe would probably a satanic,sata gives a +50 damage too,don't think mjo will be worth it on that lategame since you need to burst someone down
i think you can exchange silver edge on butterfly also,usually pike is a core too
unless you're fighting a high armor lineup or evasion,it's better to swap mkb with a crit imo
evasion is dealable with silver edge too+can deal with dk
ps anyone who thinks bat has anything to do with IAS/damage ratio should read more and write less. if dps was a pie, bat is just the number of slices it is cut into whereas ias is how many complete pies you throw each second. damage is effectively the size of the pie.
okay... forgive me for thinking about that
go on,bash me and destroy me
i wan to cry now
wat a super effective move
i want to write more but i need to write less
nooooooooooooooo
oh that's a shame that it isn't updated. used to be really helpful in thinking about stuff.
not bashing your OP - its totally ok to ask any question - I was bashing the people further down the thread who refused to read and properly understand what people were trying to tell them.
if dps was a pie, bat is just the number of slices it is cut into whereas ias is how many complete pies you throw each second. damage is effectively the size of the pie
thats legit one of the worst analogies i read, perhaps ever
thanks
It used to be pretty clearly daedulus because illusions get crit although they don't get white dmg, but illusions wouldn't get attack speed so moonshard and mjollnir were worthless for them. But that changed in one of the 7 patches so I don't know.
Most likely crit is the biggest dps increase. But crit doesn't work on buildings. So if you want just tower dmg then moonshard. If you need aoe or wave clear mjollnir. If you just want to mow down heroes daedulus. But a linkens could be game changing at that point too to get sunders off for sure, or a satanic. I think most TBs would do satanic, closely followed by daedulus at that point.
But here's the thing, you probably don't need to worry about the game every getting to this point. It's extremely rare to get 6 slotted these days on anything other than anti mage just cus these big farming heroes also push really well. A TB game is not likely going over 45 minutes.
Nice thread guys
my my,this thread has evolved into some pretty big one (pretty good tho)
@blue okay,i think i kind of get it. altho can't really reply some stuff back but "attack speed has diminishing returns with other ias items" this clears my doubts
also nowori i also buy mkb/mjo vs high armor people,but is it worth it to get more aspd just for more procs for mjolnir/mkb? (at the talent,let's just say +50 aspd) [vs high armor and normal armor]
@awakened,this is the stuff that i'm looking lol. can't really understand that formula,thanks now i just need to calculate it with 400 ias or 300 ias by myself
@perf err my original question was,do you take +aspd talent on the later games when you already have core attack speed items? let's say mjo+orch/mjo+sb (and the talent is not like dark willow's or cm,+200 aspd)
okay,maybe it depends on the game but i kind of want to ask the math dps increase on it lol
i dunno why but stacking aspd to just let more mjolnir procs doesn't really seem appealing to me,or is it that good?
my second question was,since bat 1.4/1.5/1.7 have different values for attackspeed,wat would probably the "cap" that it isn't worth it to get aspd anymore? (you know since the more aspd you have,the lesser bonuses it gives?..maybe)
okay,this question is flawed lol,some heroes just have crits and whatnot (1.4 is jugg only and has crit) and yep it depends on the game,sometimes you just want utility/lockdown items like nullifier or basher or orch or hex (most cases you won't be reaching like 450-500 aspd too i guess)
also most people here said that lower bat doesn't make aspd more valuable,i'll just accept that
@zenoth care to explain that sentence more? well it's already concise and clear but want more explanations on that/breaking it down
(well if not it's ok too)
okay i read/skimmed the thread,superduper thank you for the stuffs
have mercy on my comment
To answer your question. Bat doesn't matter in your decision on whether to build more Attack speed. As already explained by multiple posters. The "cap" is the same for 1.4/1.6/1.7 bat. If you already have a lot of IAS through building Attack speed items. More Attack speed provides diminishing returns for DPS no matter what your Bat is.
okidoki
@Feachairu: you're welcome dude
@hanyolo knows too much man but ur medal is?
hanyolo my man should be a pres.
Why does noone Talk about semi random procks? Cuz this is the point where dmg matters much more than as.
because you can't really do much about it except hitting x creeps depends on your chance % and hoping it doesn't come out then punch the nearest hero possible?
edit: or wait,maybe you talking about wat to buy when you have pretty good proc passives?
Im talking about when i play pa and my first Hit is a Crit idc about as cuz enemy is dead. LUL
The reason attack speed is considered to be better on heroes with lower BAT's is because they attack more often with the same amount of attack speed.
But damage would be just as valuable, the value of attack speed doesn't increase compared to damage
Like others said, stacking attack speed leads to diminishing returns so you don't want to stack it too much. The only heroes who would opt for this are ones with dmg procs like maybe sniper or lifestealer because of feast. Crit is not the same as a proc cus it also increase with raw dmg thus heroes like PA and jug benefit well from dmg.
In general don't worry about it too much since most heroes have standard reliable builds that mix in plenty of attack speed. You probably don't want moonshards on any hero over stuff like ac, butterfly, daedulus. Mjollnir just depends on the hero, is more for aoe than for the speed.
pick doom buy 6 moonshard
summon alche pick 6 moonshard + -0.2 BAT
watch the difference
if you talkin about that,i think ppl on the first page talking about pa ck alot lol
This really isn't a question you should be worrying on.
Nice thread. Can someone answer which is better on a 5 slotted hero like TB who has high dmg with meta and high ias due to agi gain and his general build which gives him more agi. Suppose a Tb has following 5 items , what is more efficient for higher dps as the 6th item? - A daedlus or Mjolinir or Moonshard ??
5 items being (plus a BOTs in backpack):
1: Manta
2: Butterfly
3: Skadi
4: Mkb
5: Bkb
Im confused , IMO he could use the crit and damage from daedalus , but the IAS from moonshard/Mj could also be very good in pumping fast dmg on multiple targets.
if the item is like that,i'm sure daeda/thorn/null would be go to for damage,if you need hp or vs an axe would probably a satanic,sata gives a +50 damage too,don't think mjo will be worth it on that lategame since you need to burst someone down
i think you can exchange silver edge on butterfly also,usually pike is a core too
unless you're fighting a high armor lineup or evasion,it's better to swap mkb with a crit imo
evasion is dealable with silver edge too+can deal with dk
moon is a no
go to devilsk hero calculator to figure dps out.
ps anyone who thinks bat has anything to do with IAS/damage ratio should read more and write less. if dps was a pie, bat is just the number of slices it is cut into whereas ias is how many complete pies you throw each second. damage is effectively the size of the pie.
https://devilesk.com/dota2/apps/hero-calculator/
this stuffs seems good,but it's below 7.07?
okay... forgive me for thinking about that
go on,bash me and destroy me
i wan to cry now
wat a super effective move
i want to write more but i need to write less
nooooooooooooooo
oh that's a shame that it isn't updated. used to be really helpful in thinking about stuff.
not bashing your OP - its totally ok to ask any question - I was bashing the people further down the thread who refused to read and properly understand what people were trying to tell them.
but i wan to be bashed
nowori i just acting
thats legit one of the worst analogies i read, perhaps ever
thanks
smart people make worst analogies,its fun to read
i like atkspeed more, but a 1,5k crit looks also cool.
You just can scare your enemies when you are looking.
100% underrated fact
It used to be pretty clearly daedulus because illusions get crit although they don't get white dmg, but illusions wouldn't get attack speed so moonshard and mjollnir were worthless for them. But that changed in one of the 7 patches so I don't know.
Most likely crit is the biggest dps increase. But crit doesn't work on buildings. So if you want just tower dmg then moonshard. If you need aoe or wave clear mjollnir. If you just want to mow down heroes daedulus. But a linkens could be game changing at that point too to get sunders off for sure, or a satanic. I think most TBs would do satanic, closely followed by daedulus at that point.
But here's the thing, you probably don't need to worry about the game every getting to this point. It's extremely rare to get 6 slotted these days on anything other than anti mage just cus these big farming heroes also push really well. A TB game is not likely going over 45 minutes.
Look at this pro match, miracle had 800 gpm and still didn't fully 6 slot in 46 minutes, although he did buy a refresher.
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3766915400
I feel like satanic is a somewhat underated dps Item. Honestly it might be the best hybrid damage and survivabilty item for a right clinking carry.