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      NICE article.

      MM.Ugh Brock Hall

        A lot of this article basically says 'we ran the numbers and it isn't as bad as you think' then only provides a few examples. I'd like to see some visual representation of the data, namely heroes that see an increase in winrate would be most appreciated


          Good Work there guys, Thanks 4 the new interesting thread

          Tu tayta

            Dark Willow among the 15 most difficult heroes to play? I don't think I can agree with that, I'd rather add Puck to the list.

            I spam the former, so I guess I'm biased, but still, she's not the only hero I think that looks iffy in or out of that list, but I'd like to see you elaborate more on what you mean by relative performance.


              I miss the old days of randoming for +200 gold


                Swap Dark Willow and lycan for Chen and Brew Master. I would say Morph and Puck as well but they have enough escapes for beginners.

                A Chen will accidently feed the enemy creeps, send you home because you have only 95% hp, and will only hit R when he is attacked.

                Sleight of My Fist In You...

                  the problem is the very notion of randoming...why is that there in ranked games? keep it in normal that's fine but in ranked? isn't valve supposed to be combating toxic behavior? randoming is toxic to it's core

                  there's one more feature ive got beef with it's those ranked games I'm fine with it but normal games are supposed to be used for practice and learning....if a random guy bans the hero you want to pick and learn the point of you playing that game becomes void, can't even abandon you'll be risking lp, so it's just fucked up right now

                  remove randoming from ranked and remove bans feature from talking about all pick mode as that's the only one i play


                    Batrider and Elder Titan are pretty easy hero (to be played well however is very frustating but at least their skill are pretty straight forward). Dark willow also still pretty new so her skill set just need an adjustment.
                    Chen are a lot harder, morph also underestimated, brew require good micro, rubick player sometimes use their skill irresponsibbly, and nature prophet player are a bunch of treant feeder

                    Dog (aw aw aw)

                      It should be *dependent, not dependant


                        It's not a question of if it's overpowered in the laning stage, IT IS overpowered and shouldn't be in ranked to begin with. If one of your best heroes happens be on the random hero pool for that day then you're going to have a massive advantage vs your opponent who most likely isn't playing one of the random heroes. A free 140 gold or in the case of randoming also, a free 190 gold is a stupid mechanic that shouldn't be in ranked.


                          I don't get the argument that it's unfair in ranked. If anything, it can hurt your own team's draft more than the extra consumables help. If you really think that it's broken maybe you should have some balls and decide to random yourself.

                          Potato PC

                            Bring back the true old random, not 10 random heroes


                              Most of the article is interesting, but bonus heroes are an objectively terrible idea, at the very least in ranked. Moreover, true random is much nicer


                                true random and bonus heroes both are great ... just in pubs .... in ranked i hope they remove it

                                Story Time

                                  tables with statistical output are of course hard to read for public, but some minor data graphics can not hurt - right?


                                    I would assume that the heroes that benefit the most from two mangoes are probably those that need the extra regen the most and can use the burst of mana due to their low mana regen rate -- probably offlaners like Centaur, Slardar and Doom ... would be nice if the article had included those that gain the most winrate on bonus days.


                                      Difficult to play, or highest skill ceiling? Anybody can pick up treant and have an impact, but chen takes a lot of different necessities in a player to make him viable


                                        "Players rarely do things to intentionally ruin their game" - nope! not in sea server! lols

                                        Valve! REMOVE Random on Rank Match!!! /gg

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                                        MM.Ugh Brock Hall


                                          It is certainly an advantage, as the article states, but it also states how players tend to overvalue it which leads to losses. It would be nice if there were some data on how a player fares on a bonus hero that is their 'main' to address your second point, but I would assume that the increase in winrate would be fairly small. 2% or something like that probably.

                                          Your third point that it is free gold is a bit off base though. There is a difference between having two mangoes and having the cost of them added to your pocket. If I were playing Ogre I would certainly use that money to buy mangoes, but if I were Drow I would likely keep the money for an extra wraith band or start on my boots or something like that. With that in mind, the value of the mangoes cannot be said to be equal to their cost for every hero.

                                          Still, I am of the mindset that the game should strive to maintain as level of a playing field as possible for everyone. Banning heroes helps level that field (I know that is controversial to say), but bonus heroes do not. In fact, I'd see the removal of river runes as they currently stand, and make them all bounty runes.


                                            Personally I found out that mangoes are very important for laning stage and I have started buying them anyway. I would prefer no advantage at all in ranked games. Leave all these bonuses for normal games or delete them forever. Make dota more and more dependant on skill and reduce "luck" component to minimum. Captains draft (without this stupid bonuses) in solo matchmaking isnt playable..

                                            black november

                                              Nice article. One thing I disagree though:

                                              Enchantress is easy for new players, her damage is insane and she is impossible to kill in low skill matchmaking. You dont even have to use your W on creeps.


                                                I don't understand how anyone has to "learn" a hero. They're all damn fuckin obvious to play -- even freshly released heroes.

                                                The only complications come from Microheroes and then it's all fine tuning.

                                                You really need to learn to write ; "easy to see how they can be seen" is actually horrible English.


                                                  If you don't understand why and how anyone has to "learn" a hero, consider just the pure fact that there are 110 heroes in dota with different damage, armor, hp, mana, stat gains, turn rate, base regen, movement speed, attack animations, base attack time. Also there is question of item and skill builds on hero, spells usage, and much much more.
                                                  And now I actually feel dumb answering such an obvious question...


                                                    Yeah and the basics - movement/last hits/denies are nearly more important than all that combined. That's one of my smurfs.
                                                    I've coached matrice and more recently RvP -- every range/CD/manacost/damage/reductions/mechanics/types of damage are things I know by heart.

                                                    They're just waaaaaaay less important than the rest. The basics don't really change from hero to hero and few spells, despite having different effects, are really that different in how you use them. WK/Ogre/Sven/Vengeful etc all have a targeted stun -- Lion/Nyx etc impale -- Lesh/Lina -- Dp/Magnus/Lina/DK have similar mechanics.
                                                    They're originally all variants of the same spells in the Wc3 engine with different visual animations.
                                                    Basically same same but different.

                                                    At one point if you can't switch from X to Y hero and be successful there's an issue. There's no real new mechanics under the sun.
                                                    It's like those 2k MMR 5000 games people... They have issues with their hand/eye & for some... brain coordination.

                                                    aikyu3 SuBi ♪

                                                      I give this article VeryNice/10.


                                                        Yeah the basic of dota is more Important than the basic of hero.

                                                        A 5k player who never play meepo before for example if play in 1k will win more meepo game than that 1k meepo spammer, just from map awareness, farm mechanic etc.

                                                        BLACK ZETSU
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                                                            Well, I don't think that Enchantress and Dark Willow are difficult heroes for new players.


                                                              Great article although I'm not sure that I agree with Treant Protector being one of the 15 most difficult heroes to play.

                                                              very indo-european

                                                                "Treant complicated hero"



                                                                  In article was something about 15 complicated heroes - not difficult. ;). Much more space for some weird interpretation.

                                                                  Darkness is #1

                                                                    It's not about the randoming aspect as much, you still get the bonus mangoes when you just deliberately pick a bonus hero. I'd like to see that aspect gone ideally, or at least heavily nerfed. Randoming is dumb, but at least it is a risk to balance out the reward. Choosing a bonus hero (of which there are 10, and some of them will be good) requires no investment.


                                                                      We'd better ask "Does DW's model design belong to the world of DotA2?" Guys srsly that's a legit LoL character IMO


                                                                        Enchantress, Dark Willow and Tinker in the 15 most difficult heroes; are you having a laugh?

                                                                        Tinker and Enchantress is two of the easiest heroes to play. DW is more complex, but she's hardly difficult to master.

                                                                        In my mind

                                                                          Ставим на Нави и Астралис.

                                                                          legion jungle picker 2020

                                                                            I don't think it does, especially considering randoming is arguably less rewarded. It just gives people an unfair advantage for picking heroes they'd normally pick.


                                                                              As a support main getting a bonus hero is like a blessing


                                                                                When someone says "omfg dota heroes are ez to learn just carefully read duhhhhh hurr durrrrrr"
                                                                                I bet when they first started playing dota/any moba game they'll be confused on what's going on.

                                                                                "HURR DURR JUST LEARN THE HERO DUHHHH"

                                                                                Playing dota for the first time and saying someone to learn a hero just by reading each spell and items is the same as telling a toddler to read, write, and instantly learning it after a few hours.

                                                                                Just face it, Dota has complex heroes and easy heroes.

                                                                                Sergeant Papika

                                                                                  probably too late for anyone to read but the data would be much more useful on bonus heroes if they only looked at the change in winrate for the hero when played by players with above 50 games on the hero, aka people who dont blow cock. saying "bonus hero is ok cause people who are bad pick hero and then they lose" isnt addressing the actual problem which is that good players pick it and get a big advantage in lane which can be even game winning


                                                                                    how is invoker not in the top 15 most experience dependant hero list?

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